Hillary Clinton

[Phi for All]

I was watching an episode of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., and one of the characters was observing several people on multiple monitors. Someone asks if they're doing anything suspicious, and he replied with something along the lines of "If you watch anybody long enough, they ALL look suspicious." I thought it was a nice commentary on our present criminal justice system. I hope Hillary saw that episode.

 

This is a system that's socially based, but is far too infected with capitalist exploitation. It's amazing our bail bonds system hasn't been ruled unconstitutional. Before your guilt is established, when you're supposed to be considered innocent, you can face thousands of dollars in fees or incarceration. You get the wonderful choice to plead guilty so you can pay a fine, or stay in jail until your court date (which means you lose your job, most likely). We need reform so we can choose what makes the most sense, instead of what makes the most money.

[tar]

CharonY,

 

And when I read the stats in the links, I throw in a little common sense, and pad the numbers a bit with the populations and actions that are behind the incarcerations. For instance, when the white kid from my town goes to buy their drugs from a black man in Paterson, they have stolen the money from their Mom's purse, a situation the family has to deal with. On the other hand, when the poor black girl in Paterson buys the drugs she may have had to sell her body to get them, or rip off a mark for the funds. Or a black man in East Orange may have stolen a pillowcase full of my possesions to pawn for the high. The kid that stole from the mom is not supposed to wind up in jail. The guy that stole my best stuff, is supposed to wind up in jail, and the dealer that sold my town's young people the drugs, should wind up in jail. Of those drug related cases I just reported, no white wound up in prison, and at least two blacks did or should have.

 

The numbers are not without cause other than racism. And the solutions are not without changes to things other than the criminal justice system. There is the expectations of what a young black man SHOULD be like, that need some work. From both within and outside the "black community".

 

Regards, TAR

Equal treatment under the law is a right. But it comes with a responsibility to obey the law. And not only that, but the responsibility to not only police yourself, but to help police the community. That is, the criminal minded community does not like a snitch. A law abiding community, does not stomach the illegal behavior in the first place.

 

Like with Michael Brown, of course an unarmed young man should not have been killed...but he did strong arm a shop owner, steal a handful of cigars, and reach into the police car, punched the lone officer in the face and struggled over his weapon. No sane, reasonable, law abiding citizen does such things. One could easily think drugs had to be involved for a man to do such stupid and dangerous and illegal stuff. Some responsibility should be taken by the parents to have raised their child to were such behavior was even possible, before one blames the police for racism.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited September 15, 2016 by tar

[MigL]

A little off topic but...

According to C. Powell, who has no use for D. Trump, but is an admirer and close friend of H. Clinton, that 'old dog' Bill is still diddling some blonde woman. And everyone knows about it ( although its news to me ).

He has to be one of the most interesting Presidents since R. Nixon.

 

That's what this election needed. A good, juicy, European style SEX scandal to liven it up.

[Delta1212]

CharonY,

 

And when I read the stats in the links, I throw in a little common sense, and pad the numbers a bit with the populations and actions that are behind the incarcerations. For instance, when the white kid from my town goes to buy their drugs from a black man in Paterson, they have stolen the money from their Mom's purse, a situation the family has to deal with. On the other hand, when the poor black girl in Paterson buys the drugs she may have had to sell her body to get them, or rip off a mark for the funds. Or a black man in East Orange may have stolen a pillowcase full of my possesions to pawn for the high. The kid that stole from the mom is not supposed to wind up in jail. The guy that stole my best stuff, is supposed to wind up in jail, and the dealer that sold my town's young people the drugs, should wind up in jail. Of those drug related cases I just reported, no white wound up in prison, and at least two blacks did or should have.

 

The numbers are not without cause other than racism. And the solutions are not without changes to things other than the criminal justice system. There is the expectations of what a young black man SHOULD be like, that need some work. From both within and outside the "black community".

 

Regards, TAR

Equal treatment under the law is a right. But it comes with a responsibility to obey the law. And not only that, but the responsibility to not only police yourself, but to help police the community. That is, the criminal minded community does not like a snitch. A law abiding community, does not stomach the illegal behavior in the first place.

 

Like with Michael Brown, of course an unarmed young man should not have been killed...but he did strong arm a shop owner, steal a handful of cigars, and reach into the police car, punched the lone officer in the face and struggled over his weapon. No sane, reasonable, law abiding citizen does such things. One could easily think drugs had to be involved for a man to do such stupid and dangerous and illegal stuff. Some responsibility should be taken by the parents to have raised their child to were such behavior was even possible, before one blames the police for racism.

 

Regards, TAR

The wonderful thing about common sense is that it always agrees with whatever you already believe, and so can be used to reinterpret any evidence to the contrary in a way that means you never have to change your mind about any of your preconceived notions.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Delta1212

[iNow]

Well I guess she did speak out against the violence. But...

And once more, dear friends, the goal posts get pushed... Those on the right have a predetermined conclusion in search of cherry-picked evidence instead of allowing facts to form their conclusions. As I'm sure is obvious, this is... to be frank... bass ackwards.

[MigL]

Aw come on, no one is biting on the NYPost article concerning C. Powell's e-mail about B.Clinton still 'di**ing' a blonde ( J. McMahon ) ? Poor Hillary, no wonder she's getting sick.

 

All this deleted e-mail stuff is boring, and should be inconsequential.

The only things that should be problematical are the DNC's fix to favor her nomination over B. Sanders ( not really her fault ) and the calling of a portion of the electorate 'basket' cases ( and that could be explained by stress and impending pneumonia ).

So why not just admit it and end the story. By trying to cover it up with lies, she prolongs the story and keeps falling in the polls because people perceive her as un-trustworthy.

 

Has anyone noticed how quiet D. Trump is lately?

He doesn't have to say anything; unless things change H. Clinton will end up defeating herself.

[swansont]

Aw come on, no one is biting on the NYPost article concerning C. Powell's e-mail about B.Clinton still 'di**ing' a blonde ( J. McMahon ) ? Poor Hillary, no wonder she's getting sick.

 

All this deleted e-mail stuff is boring, and should be inconsequential.

The only things that should be problematical are the DNC's fix to favor her nomination over B. Sanders ( not really her fault ) and the calling of a portion of the electorate 'basket' cases ( and that could be explained by stress and impending pneumonia ).

So why not just admit it and end the story. By trying to cover it up with lies, she prolongs the story and keeps falling in the polls because people perceive her as un-trustworthy.

 

Has anyone noticed how quiet D. Trump is lately?

He doesn't have to say anything; unless things change H. Clinton will end up defeating herself.

She didn't call them baskets cases. It was a basket full of deplorables, and it seems to have finally triggered a duscussion in the press about the bigoted nature of a large part of Trump's support.

 

In this thread it seems that precious little discussion has centered on policy and mostly on nonsense (looks, testosterone, memory issues that weren't really memory issues, overblown so-called scandals). An alleged affair by Bill is yet another distraction. For political discourse that's shameful.

[Willie71]

She didn't call them baskets cases. It was a basket full of deplorables, and it seems to have finally triggered a duscussion in the press about the bigoted nature of a large part of Trump's support.

In this thread it seems that precious little discussion has centered on policy and mostly on nonsense (looks, testosterone, memory issues that weren't really memory issues, overblown so-called scandals). An alleged affair by Bill is yet another distraction. For political discourse that's shameful.

I think the lack of policy discussion stems from the belief, whether right or wrong, that Clinton will lie through her teeth to get into the White House, then not follow through with the platform. Yes, people think trump will do whatever comes into his mind if he wins, with no regard to campaign policies either.

[MigL]

I know. I just used basket cases as short form.

 

But how can we compare platforms when D. Trump doesn't really have one ?

[DrmDoc]

Much of the negative feelings expressed here, I believe, has to do with hurt feelings over Bernie's loss and how he lost. However, it's delusional to believe a businessman bred in the harsh environment of NY politics is anymore trustworthy than Mrs. Clinton. The voters who favor The Donald over Hillary should put aside their misinformed beliefs and consider the advice expressed by many Republican leaders that Donald's presidency wouldn't be good for the country.

Edited September 16, 2016 by DrmDoc

[Ten oz]

Phi for All,

 

 

 

I do not have a conservative bias, I have a common sense bias.

 

I do not doubt the statistics, I doubt that blacks in prison are there inappropriately.

 

Last 3 Presidents of the country have all admitted to priordrug use. Drug use accounts for about half of our prison population. Blacks are no more likely to use drug but are much more likely to be incarcerated for drugs.

 

Not only black people, but all people, we (the USA) incarcerate far too many people. We claim to be a free country buyt have a record breaking number of people behind bars. It is wrong. People should only go to prison if they pose a threat to society. The war on drugs has been a failure, has not been enforced fairly, and it is time to change course.

[swansont]

I think the lack of policy discussion stems from the belief, whether right or wrong, that Clinton will lie through her teeth to get into the White House, then not follow through with the platform. Yes, people think trump will do whatever comes into his mind if he wins, with no regard to campaign policies either.

 

 

Belief, yes. But no candidate exists in a vacuum. And she actually has a public service track record of things for which she's followed through (e.g. education and healthcare), but nobody's talking about that, either.

[Willie71]

Much of the negative feelings expressed here, I believe, has to do with hurt feelings over Bernie's loss and how he loss. However, it's delusional to believe a businessman bred in the harsh environment of NY politics is anymore trustworthy than Mrs. Clinton. The voters who favor The Donald over Hillary should put aside their misinformed beliefs and consider the advice expressed by many Republican leaders that Donald's presidency wouldn't be good for the country.

I'll be honest. This to me is very insulting. The differences between Clinton and Sanders are stark, and it's not hurt feelings that influence my decisions. It's funny how rhetoric pushed by the MSM gets repeated as if it were true. I don't know of anyone who has "hurt feelings" as if we were children on a school ground. It's a dismissive statement and further alienates the people who had the good sense to support sanders in the first place.

[tar]

Last 3 Presidents of the country have all admitted to priordrug use. Drug use accounts for about half of our prison population. Blacks are no more likely to use drug but are much more likely to be incarcerated for drugs.

 

Not only black people, but all people, we (the USA) incarcerate far too many people. We claim to be a free country buyt have a record breaking number of people behind bars. It is wrong. People should only go to prison if they pose a threat to society. The war on drugs has been a failure, has not been enforced fairly, and it is time to change course.

Ten Oz,

 

I do not doubt the statistics, nor feel it is great to put people in jail for drug use. I know people that smoke pot, where it would be a complete stupid thing to put them in jail for it. And I do not doubt that the higher sentencing for crack cocaine, targeted the ghetto user, and soft handled the affluent, Hollywood type user. But there are more dangers, and robberies and muggings and gang killings and the like associated with inner city drug use than suburban drug use. So when the arrest is drug related, you have to, to be fair,g specify whether the drugs were found in association with another crime, DUI, violent craziness, burglary, mugging, rape, murder, and whether the drug was being dealt, or poisoned, or cut with more dangerous stuff, or what. There is a dependency created by drugs where the dealer is the dominant, dangerous, life destroying influence. He is the one that should be put in jail, and the user should not, especially if they have not broken any other laws to get high. So we can change drug laws, if we want, or control the sale of acceptable drugs through state stores, like many states do alcohol, but the criminality around drug use, other than the mere possession and use, has to be considered here as well. You can not just look at the people in jail and say they are in there because they are black. They are in there because they got involved with drugs in a way dangerous enough to get the police involved.

 

Regards, TAR

[DrmDoc]

I'll be honest. This to me is very insulting. The differences between Clinton and Sanders are stark, and it's not hurt feelings that influence my decisions. It's funny how rhetoric pushed by the MSM gets repeated as if it were true. I don't know of anyone who has "hurt feelings" as if we were children on a school ground. It's a dismissive statement and further alienates the people who had the good sense to support sanders in the first place.

 

If not hurt and resentful, then why are some of you still so angry that you continue to bash Hillary short of endorsing a man (Trump) clearly unqualified to lead our country? As Bernie's supporters, why not follow his lead, let go of your palpable hate, and support Hillary for most likely the betterment of our nation's future?

Edited September 16, 2016 by DrmDoc

[tar]

And once more, dear friends, the goal posts get pushed... Those on the right have a predetermined conclusion in search of cherry-picked evidence instead of allowing facts to form their conclusions. As I'm sure is obvious, this is... to be frank... bass ackwards.

iNow,

 

I am not "someone on the right", and "someone on the left" is just as subject to predetermined conclusions, denying the facts as anybody else.

 

The stats that were linked earlier included a link that showed homicides have been steadily falling over the last 35 years, at the same time during the same time period, it showed gun ownership tripling. These facts should slow down someone on the left, screaming that common sense gun control will lower homicides. The facts show that the number of guns increasing is in fact coincident with the homicide rate falling.

 

Regards, TAR

where the homicides have increase is in the inner cities, where gang and drug violence is the cause

 

The facts would point to the drug and gang violence as the cause of the problem, not the guns.

Chicago is on fire, with somebody sure to die tonight in a drug and gang related shooting.

 

The left blames the NRA. The right you assume blames blacks and Hispanics because they are racist. I look at the facts and blame drugs and gangs.

if most drug dealers and gang members are black and Hispanic, then those are the facts

Edited September 16, 2016 by tar

[iNow]

The stats that were linked earlier included a link that showed homicides have been steadily falling over the last 35 years, at the same time during the same time period, it showed gun ownership tripling. These facts should slow down someone on the left, screaming that common sense gun control will lower homicides.

Correlation [math]\ne[/math] Causation.

 

Just because you see more umbrellas on days when it rains doesn't mean umbrellas caused the precipitation to fall.

 

The more parsimonious explanation for the reduction in crime is lower poverty and increased spending on and availability of social programs in parallel with improved proactive law enforcement, but we digress...again.

[tar]

Mexico also has a high gun homicide rate as does the U.S. Coincident is the drugs and gangs. Correlation is not causation, but common sense can do the linking.

[Ten oz]

Ten Oz,

 

I do not doubt the statistics, nor feel it is great to put people in jail for drug use. I know people that smoke pot, where it would be a complete stupid thing to put them in jail for it. And I do not doubt that the higher sentencing for crack cocaine, targeted the ghetto user, and soft handled the affluent, Hollywood type user. But there are more dangers, and robberies and muggings and gang killings and the like associated with inner city drug use than suburban drug use. So when the arrest is drug related, you have to, to be fair,g specify whether the drugs were found in association with another crime, DUI, violent craziness, burglary, mugging, rape, murder, and whether the drug was being dealt, or poisoned, or cut with more dangerous stuff, or what. There is a dependency created by drugs where the dealer is the dominant, dangerous, life destroying influence. He is the one that should be put in jail, and the user should not, especially if they have not broken any other laws to get high. So we can change drug laws, if we want, or control the sale of acceptable drugs through state stores, like many states do alcohol, but the criminality around drug use, other than the mere possession and use, has to be considered here as well. You can not just look at the people in jail and say they are in there because they are black. They are in there because they got involved with drugs in a way dangerous enough to get the police involved.

 

Regards, TAR

The drugs basically all come from the same place. DEA, Customs, Coast Guard, FBI, and etc all work jointly in place like Mexico, Panama, Columbia, and etc to stop drugs from coming into our country. To spot and destory crops grown within our borders. You post a lot about terrorism in the Middle East but what about Narco terrorism? What about all those associated mass graves and all that gov't corruption. The Suburbs you mentions ae the larger revenue drivers for drugs crime inc not the inner cities. Poor people don't have money (hence the label poor) they are not responsible for the trillion dollar drug industry.

 

You say you believe the stats and agree drug related charges should land people in prison, great, so then you must agree half the people in prison today should not that there. That is more that reason enough for reform.

[MigL]

And you're preaching to the choir Swansont.

Everyone here recognizes H. Clinton's track record, and I would go so far as to state that if it was just members of this forum voting in the election, H. Clinton would defeat D. Trump with 95% of the votes.

 

We're just questioning why some of the things she, and the DNC, have done were even considered in the first place. In today's society everything comes to light, and a lot of these bad decisions are coming to light just before the election. Just when they can do the most damage.

 

And I might suggest, telling others what is appropriate political discourse, and what should be important ( to THEM ) ranks pretty high on the 'snobbish' scale. To some people Bill's extramarital dalliances are an indication of the future president's family values, and some people think that's important. To some people 'looks' are important, as we have a prime minister who hasn't done anything different from the previous one, yet has stratospheric approval ratings ( probably due to the large umber of 'selfies' he takes ). Similarly with memory issues that aren't really memory issues ( do you mean lies ? ) and diminish her credibility; not compared to D. Trump ( who has none ), but compared to most people's own personal scale.

 

And drug use/crime rate should be in another thread, guys.

Edited September 16, 2016 by MigL

[tar]

The drugs basically all come from the same place. DEA, Customs, Coast Guard, FBI, and etc all work jointly in place like Mexico, Panama, Columbia, and etc to stop drugs from coming into our country. To spot and destory crops grown within our borders. You post a lot about terrorism in the Middle East but what about Narco terrorism? What about all those associated mass graves and all that gov't corruption. The Suburbs you mentions ae the larger revenue drivers for drugs crime inc not the inner cities. Poor people don't have money (hence the label poor) they are not responsible for the trillion dollar drug industry.

 

You say you believe the stats and agree drug related charges should land people in prison, great, so then you must agree half the people in prison today should not that there. That is more that reason enough for reform.

But Ten Oz,

 

You do not know if half the people in prison on drug related charges were just innocent folks smoking weed on their back porch.

 

Plus if you are indicting the suburbs for orchestrating the ghettos, then you are indicting Hilary and Chappaqua.

 

Regards, TAR

Plus Ten Oz,

 

If you are right, which you very well might be. There is someone in power in Paterson that knows the drug deals are going on, and they are not stopping them. It would be near impossible to consider that thousands of white folk from the suburbs could know they could get a dose of heroine for 5 dollars by driving off of RT. 80 into Paterson and easily find a person that would sell it to them, and have the Town of Paterson not be aware that this was going on. In terms of the thread topic of Hilary, and your charges, it would appear that someone in Paterson is turning a blind eye to the deals, and as far as I know Paterson votes Democrat.

 

Regards, TAR

1997-2002 Martin G. Barnes (March 15, 1948 – December 28, 2012)[6] Republican

2002-2010 Jose "Joey" Torres Democrat

2010- 2014 Jeffery Jones Democrat

2014–present Jose "Joey" Torres Democrat

Mayors of Paterson

I worked with a gentleman whose family was once involved with Paterson politics. He worked a chart (map) one week that correlated the areas in the city known for drug activity, with the murders that had happened that month in Paterson. A one hundred percent correlation.

Edited September 16, 2016 by tar

[Willie71]

If not hurt and resentful, then why are some of you still so angry that you continue to bash Hillary short of endorsing a man (Trump) clearly unqualified to lead our country? As Bernie's supporters, why not follow his lead, let go of your palpable hate, and support Hillary for most likely the betterment of our nation's future?

 

Clinton is a third way democrat. I've linked what that is about previously. We disagree with the republican lite policies. People supporting Clinton were against Reagan, and economically, they aren't that different. We don't believe Clinton is good for the world economy, or foreign relations. I have repeated over and over that I don't support trump. Why do you keep conflating that? If Clinton loses, she loses for being unlikeable, secretive, corrupt, and establishment. Even if she's no different from others like her, she has a public relations issue, and the DNC put their thumb on the scale through the primaries, and they may lose the election because of this. That is on the DNC and the Clinton campaign. They knew she has been attacked for decades, and was unliked, but they thought they could push her through. From the last e-mail leak, even Obama and Powell wouldn't be disappointed if she loses this because she is so damaged.She's not liked. Whether deserved or not, that is the reality.

[tar]

It is not criminal justice reform we need. It is electing mayors and governors and Presidents, that will look to build Paterson's economy off something other than drugs. Like tourism, stores, industry, offices and whatever. Things that don't thrive, when there are drugs and crime around.

[Delta1212]

Of course people in power know the drug deals are going on and aren't stopping them.

 

There is a rather large difference between knowing that a problem exists and having the resources to fix it.

[swansont]

You can not just look at the people in jail and say they are in there because they are black. They are in there because they got involved with drugs in a way dangerous enough to get the police involved.

 

 

But you don't actually know this. You certainly haven't supported your narrative with any facts or statistics, so it's just a story you made up, that's biased to support your position. You assume the answer.

 

If someone is convicted for drug possession, then all you know is that they were in possession of drugs.

 

edit: in your little morality tale a few pages back your drug dealer was black. But in the US drug dealers are much, much more likely to be white than black.

 

"Blacks thus represented 14% of the combined black and white sellers"

 

https://www.hrw.org/news/2009/06/19/race-drugs-and-law-enforcement-united-states