Hillary Clinton

[DrmDoc]

DrmDoc,

 

Concurrently I appreciate your acknowledgement that it is possible for her to be covering a gasp with or without me being deplorable to suggest it.

 

Regards, TAR

 

To be clear, I acknowledged what she was quoted as saying. What isn't clear to me is the significance of whether or not she was covering a gasp.

Edited September 11, 2016 by DrmDoc

[tar]

You think it was covering a cough or was intense concentration?

[Phi for All]

Is there a point to this whole OMG-she's-visually-affected-by-something argument? FFS, the right gets to call her the emotionless ice-bitch, until she starts actually showing facial expressions, then they get to make schoolyard-juvenile jokes about that. Very similar to what conservatives are doing with black protesters. First they claim blacks should find non-violent ways to protest, then they get their panties bunched up when Colin Kaepernick does EXACTLY that.

 

This is the same as the primaries. I was stumping for Sanders, but I was appalled that the right slammed Hillary for raising her voice at her own rallies when Sanders practically screamed at his (and Trump did worse). It's more double standards trying to put a woman down for what men are better known for.

 

Is anyone really saying Hillary didn't deserve to be in that room because she put her hand to her face for some reason?

[tar]

another link I cannot seem to copy here is from MRC NewsBusters that combats liberal bias in the press, and would therefore be one of your not allowed sources of facts, but they put the quote in context quoting Obama and the complete quote of Hilary where she includes suggestion that everyone in the room was experiencing adrenaline and cortisol during the operation, and this absolutely suggests a gasp, over the possibility of a yawn or a cough or intense concentration, to provide the reason for the covering of the mouth

[swansont]

another link I cannot seem to copy here is from MRC NewsBusters that combats liberal bias in the press, and would therefore be one of your not allowed sources of facts, but they put the quote in context quoting Obama and the complete quote of Hilary where she includes suggestion that everyone in the room was experiencing adrenaline and cortisol during the operation, and this absolutely suggests a gasp, over the possibility of a yawn or a cough or intense concentration, to provide the reason for the covering of the mouth

And? Your accusation was that she was petrified.

 

To be fair to Swansort, she did say "largely" not "only." However largely implies the majority, and that is hyperbolic in itself.

To be even fairer, my comment was restricted to accusations of corruption.

[MigL]

I realize there are only two candidates iNow.

And were I American, I would be voting for H. Clinton, as I've stated for over a year now.

 

The fact remains that she has 'baggage', too establishment insider and trust issues.

And while we can all agree she is the more capable ( and honest ) of the two candidates, this 'baggage' is dragging down her polling.

We are examining these issues.

Are you suggesting we should cover our eyes, mouths and ears, and pretend these issues are non-existent ( or simply made up by a right wing conspiracy against her ).

 

Edit:

My apologies if I misinterpreted your statements Swansont.

Your right, there could be some element of apprehension over the fact she's a woman, just like there was ( and is ) over B. Obama being a black American. But it is certainly not a major factor ( probably much less than B. Obama's case ).

Edited September 11, 2016 by MigL

[tar]

Phi for All,

 

She absolutely had a right to be in the room. However she was not as prepared to witness what she saw, as the others in the room, including the anti-terrorism director who was also in the room, and who was a woman.

 

I served in the Army with women and some were tougher, more "butch" then others. Some were homosexual, some were straight, some I would feel would protect my back in a fox hole, some I would feel I had to protect as a frail woman.

 

My feeling about Hilary in the situation room was that she was not hardened enough to what she was seeing as I would want my commander in chief to be.

 

If it does not matter to you, if it was a gasp or a cough, why would she change her story now, and say it was a cough, when at the time she admitted it was a reaction like she would have if her husband dragged her to an action movie. As if she was not interested or prepared or used to seeing such things?

 

 

Like who do you want to go camping with, someone petrified of snakes and spiders? Or like the old joke during the Gulf war, inviting the French to War is like bringing a violin on a deer hunt.

Meaning that commander in chief sends people into battle. Such a person should know what that is like, and have the stomach to sign the drone order.

 

A gasp makes her look a little weak in that regard.

 

Regards, TAR

[DrmDoc]

You think it was covering a cough or was intense concentration?

 

If what she's quoted as saying is true, then that is what I think, which was her usual reaction to action related viewing.

 

From your comments above, I now understand the position you're trying to convey in that her female sensibilities render Mrs. Clinton unprepared for certain harsh realities. If so, I couldn't disagree more with such beliefs.

Edited September 11, 2016 by DrmDoc

[Phi for All]

another link I cannot seem to copy here is from MRC NewsBusters that combats liberal bias in the press, and would therefore be one of your not allowed sources of facts, but they put the quote in context quoting Obama and the complete quote of Hilary where she includes suggestion that everyone in the room was experiencing adrenaline and cortisol during the operation, and this absolutely suggests a gasp, over the possibility of a yawn or a cough or intense concentration, to provide the reason for the covering of the mouth

 

Wasn't it you who said at that particular moment one of our helicopters was having trouble? What is wrong with YOU that you think any kind of startle reaction (our helo was hit?) is someone being "petrified"? People who don't consider their whole political outlook "conservative" know that you can show surprise without being afraid, irrational, or petrified.

 

Although Hillary before Sanders was far too conservative for me.

[swansont]

You can find violence distasteful and still be prepared to use it when necessary. I would prefer that to someone who was eager to do so, or was cavalier about the prospect.

 

Still not an indication that she was petrified.

[tar]

Like a frail grandma, that calls in her grandchild to kill the spider.

[MigL]

In opposition to Tar's views about the picture...

 

I find her reaction 'humanizes' her, she looks concerned to me.

And that's never a bad thing.

[tar]

So DrmDoc,

 

You couldn't disagree more with my assessment that Hilary doesn't have the stomach, or you certainly hope she has more stomach than I am sensing she has.

 

It is possible for me to imagine her having the stomach. She is "feared" by many, and obviously can show her scorn. But in the Army they give you various tests to see how you react under pressure and pain and surprise. You have to put your mask on when the tear gas explodes next to you. Those that panic and run don't pass basic training.

 

I can let you have the image that she has more balls, than most men, but I did not see that in the situation room.

 

Regards, TAR

MigL,

 

So does Obama look concerned. Leaning forward, intense, concentrating, concerned. Like a commander in chief should look.

 

 

Regards, TAR

swansont,

 

If not petrified, what? Surprised, worried, scared, upset, concerned, what? I am saying she covered a gasp. Not a cough.

 

Regards, TAR

[MigL]

Sure.

Some people put their hand over their chin when concentrating, some over their mouth.

You'll notice both H. Clinton and B. Obama are somewhat squinting, which implies focus and concentration.

 

She's certainly not wide eyed, and shocked by what she's seeing.

 

And I really don't see the relevance of personal idiosyncrasies when concentrating.

( much like I didn't see the relevance of G.W. Bush's stunned reaction to the news of the 9/11 attacks while reading to the classroom of kids )

[tar]

MigL,

 

Still with the concentrating, huh. Even after her quotes about adrenaline and cortisol at first, and her covering a cough excuse a year later? When did she ever even say "well I was concentrating"?

 

I think you have the image you want to have of her, that is not dependent on how she really is.

 

Regards, TAR

Sort of an idealize version of a female president, that is strong and brave, and smart and quick and tolerant and will lead us properly, without that pesky testosterone...except, when it comes to having balls, you need the testosterone that they produce, or you don't have the testosterone.

[swansont]

swansont,

 

If not petrified, what? Surprised, worried, scared, upset, concerned, what? I am saying she covered a gasp. Not a cough.

 

Regards, TAR

None of those are synonyms for petrified. Would a concerned commander in chief give you pause? A worried one? Why? A cabinet member showing concern for our troops? Couldn't have that!

[DrmDoc]

So DrmDoc,

 

You couldn't disagree more with my assessment that Hilary doesn't have the stomach, or you certainly hope she has more stomach than I am sensing she has.

 

It is possible for me to imagine her having the stomach. She is "feared" by many, and obviously can show her scorn. But in the Army they give you various tests to see how you react under pressure and pain and surprise. You have to put your mask on when the tear gas explodes next to you. Those that panic and run don't pass basic training.

 

I can let you have the image that she has more balls, than most men, but I did not see that in the situation room.

 

Regards, TAR

 

The lack of similar reactions from the men in that war room is not evidence that they felt any different from Mrs. Clinton or that men are somehow more emotionally equipped to handle the pressures and stresses of higher office and war. Tell that to the female officers on the frontlines and the men returning from war who are suffering PTSD, if you believe otherwise. In Mrs. Clinton's case, she has seemingly been under continual political attack and legal investigation since her husband, Bill, was elected to office. Despite those attacks and challenges, Mrs. Clinton has not resigned from seeking public office or retreated from public inspection. Even in the picture link you supplied, she sat with the men and did not appear to avert her eyes from witnessing the heroic acts of our soldiers--as she is quoted as saying, she considered it a privilege. This was not the reaction or the words of the fearful female you construe her to be. You're reading more into her gestures during that event than the men in that same room. How about the general seated beside the President in your picture, who seemingly couldn't bear to watch the action--with bowed head--unlike Mrs. Clinton? If we're judging by appearances, she certainly seemed more stoic than him.

Edited September 11, 2016 by DrmDoc

[MigL]

No Tar, the image I have is that she's opportunistic, and like a true politician, will say ( or use the excuse ) that she thinks is appropriate at the time.

Sometimes, but not always, maybe even the truth.

 

And I've never met her, nor, I presume, have you.

So we both have just an image of her public persona.

Both are subject to personal interpretation. Should yours be any more accurate ?

Edited September 11, 2016 by MigL

[tar]

You know, the more I am arguing this point the more I am realizing that I do think there is a difference between being led by a woman and being led by a man. Like woman are from Venus, men are from Mars, I think there is a difference. Hormonal, physical, psychological, but I have reacted differently to being led by women and being led my men. Like not being able to hit girls, I submit to the authority of a woman, in a different way then I submit to the authority of a male. I "let" a weaker male have authority over me. A stronger male than me actually has authority over me. I will challenge a male in authority over me, when I disagree. A female I "give" her, her way. Out of respect for the post, out of training for respecting the wishes of women, out of feeling of protection for her, I don't know, but not the same set of rules as I have concerning a male boss. I will not challenge a woman as that is not what a gentleman does, where challenging a male is absolutely what a man does, when appropriate.

 

So I will accept the label of sexist. I do treat woman with kid gloves, as I consider them women, and put them on a pedestal not available to another male. But women still do wear tight short dresses with necklines, and still act like women, so I do not think I am completely out of line with current thinking.

 

Regards, TAR

[MigL]

And the OP is not about you and your reaction to women ( although you could start a new thread about it; I'm sure you'd get a lot of contribution ).

It is about Hillary Clinton, and the strengths and weaknesses she would bring to the Presidential office..

[tar]

MigL,

 

No I have not met her, but I talked with somebody that worked in the White House when she was first lady and ran the white house, and he characterized her as a B----. She was very demanding, and would have her way in all matters, large and small. He did not like her personality. It is possible to run things, and be a leader that people love and respect. You don't have to be a B---- or a B------.

 

So we have a choice this November between a B---- and a B------. I have no idea how I want to see it turn out. I guess the people of the U.S. will decide... but I do not see her as having the gravitas of Thatcher or Merkel or Albright and if I was still in the Army, I would not want her as my commander in chief.

 

Regards, TAR

fair point MigL, nobody cares how I feel about women...except if I feel the thing, there might be others that have had similar upbringing and similar experiences that would feel the same thing, and they might vote for Trump because they don't have faith in Hilary as Commander in Chief, and the topic is therefore pertinent to the OP

Edited September 11, 2016 by tar

[Delta1212]

iNow,

 

First, you are putting words in my mouth, and thoughts in my head, concerning who I excuse morally for their conduct. I am not for Trump and I am not for Hilary, and think I have no good choice in November.

Second, the list of charges you bring against Trump are all the talking points used in the commercials of Hilary, to paint him as an person unfit for the presidency, based on our moral indignation at his tone and gestures and what saying a thing means to us about his deplorable nature. Just being morally outraged, does not, in regards, to our current point of contention, convict him of wrongdoing. So if he has broken the law and made restitution, the thing is behind us, in the legal sense of wrong doing. What remains is the moral sense, which you say is not factual and we should get over in the case of Hilary, but should convict on the basis of, in the case of Trump.

Thirdly you did not answer my question. Does the fact that Trump called somebody a name, or showed somebody disrespect, or rented to a white guy, or made fun of somebody, convict him of wrongdoing in the legal sense, of wrongdoing, or does it violate your sense of decency?

 

If the answer to the third is that it violates your sense of decency, then you have to allow something that Hilary does to potentially violate someone else's sense of decency, and not use your moral standards to set the objective standards, of decency. You can forgive who you want of what you want to forgive them for, but NOT suggest Hilary was cleared of wrongdoing by the FBI director, after his listing of everything she did wrong.

 

Regards, TAR

 

Delta1212,

 

Earlier in the thread I got a neg rep for suggesting that Hilary was petrified by what she was seeing on the screen. I was convicted of being bias against her, and sexist and had no right or evidence to suggest she was horrified at the scene when the pose she took was a natural pose of concentration, and thinking otherwise was evidence that I was sexist and bias against Hilary, in having some misgivings about her ability to be commander in chief.

 

Except she was horrified at what she was seeing on the screen. Nobody backed off their defense of Hilary on this. I am expecting a reassessment on a couple people's part of the picture, based on the fact that she was horrified, and not just concentrating.

 

Regards, TAR

I'm sorry you got a neg rep? I'm not the one who gave it to you. I rarely give rep points, positive or negative, partly because I usually browse this site on mobile where the buttons for it don't show up.

[tar]

Thread,

 

No one had mentioned Hilary's health situation this morning.

 

She had to be helped into a van and spent some time at her daughters, and emerged "feeling fine."

 

But this morning, the article said she had fainted in a reception area, and this afternoon, just that she was seen being helped into a van, had been battling a cough due to allergies and was diagnosed on Friday with pneumonia, was dehydrated, but is not dehydrated and is feeling fine, but rest is prescribed.

 

I believe we had a president that was resigned to a wheelchair with polio or something, so health issues should not bar one from being president, but there is the optics of a frail grandma, that is not a strength for a president.

 

Regards, TARhttps://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/doctor-clinton-has-pneumonia-recovering-after-9-11-event/ar-AAiLvEu?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=edgsp

She looks fine this afternoon, but she was near collapse this morning.

Edited September 11, 2016 by tar

[rangerx]

but there is the optics of a frail grandma, that is not a strength for a president.

 

Regards, TAR

 

As opposed to a orange spray painted face with a peroxide bleached hair-sprayed comb-over being gallant and fearsome?

[tar]

rangerx,

 

Yeah, I saw a picture of him bald. Pretty unimpressive.

 

Regards, TAR

optically Biden would have been a better choice

When Hilary is president and she is sick in the morning and too weak to come downstairs, will it be OK for Bill to come down and speak to her cabinet for her?

what are the rules on that? We don't have a precedent.

Is having a former president on a state visit with you as your spouse, a strength or a weakness?

 

I remember reading an article on Hilary as Secretary of state where a leader asked what President Clinton thought on the matter at hand and Hilary got testy and reminded the leader it was what she thought on the matter that was the question. The leader corrected himself and said he meant he was interested in what President Obama thought about the matter.

How does Hilary feel about Bill's gravitas and world recognition and influence. Can she use it, legally to her advantage and to the advantage of the country or will she leave him home?