Do ' Quantum ' ideas, relate to Space-Time ? Would Observations , and Investigations , count, if conducted at (bench height above the Earth.)

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Glad you agree that these are not experiments being performed on spacetime. Post when you think of such a test.

.

Is not space- time supposed to interact with light . So could I set up an experiment that somehow , incorporated the oscillating China plates but has some connection with a laser and mirror . Say a piece of mirror on the oscillating China plate with a low power lazer reflecting off the mirror . Then I will have the quanta of light comming into the picture ?

 

Will this give me any access to SPACE-TIME ?

 

Mike

Edited September 9, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[imatfaal]

I seem to recall that the amount of deflection of light that is tangential to earth's surface due to gravity of the entire earth is about 2*10^-7 of a degree - you wanna do that experiment scaled down to the mass of a plate? You wanna try and solve the equations for a system like an rotating precessing oscilating plate, on a rotating planet, etc. when we struggle to do solve for all but the simplest systems. And it won't get you anywhere in your question as it will merely be testing the deflection of light in accordance with the predictions of GR - which could be via intrinsic curvature or it could be via another explanation that we have not yet come across.

 

To probe spacetime - rather than just check GR - you would need to come up with a feature/prediction that is absent from GR

[Mordred]

Some experiments can be done strictly under mathematics. One might think this isn't the case but in some cases the math is sufficient.

 

Lets take for example "parallel transport" of two free falling objects.

 

From center of gravity draw a vertical line. At an equal distance on either side place an object. Draw a line from those objects to Center of mass.

 

The two objects will fall towards the center of gravity "They will deviate from a parallel path"

 

That deviation determines your spacetime geodesics.

 

Naturally you can test this with dropping two objects to validate the deviation. However this case is simple geometry relations that doesn't involve adding any force.

 

In point of detail many of the complex formulas used in GR are geometric associations. Those geometry relations can be mathematically tested.

[swansont]

.

Is not space- time supposed to interact with light . So could I set up an experiment that somehow , incorporated the oscillating China plates but has some connection with a laser and mirror . Say a piece of mirror on the oscillating China plate with a low power lazer reflecting off the mirror . Then I will have the quanta of light comming into the picture ?

 

Will this give me any access to SPACE-TIME ?

 

Mike

 

 

You'd be testing light.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

You'd be testing light.

 

.

Yes but I thought light was curved slightly by space-time . Or have I got that wrong ?

 

I have. A Dilemma, here .

 

I have ALL the ingredients within reach by my finger ends . Yet not totally clear , what to latch on to to make measurements .

 

I have the Earth beneath our feet , the obvious source of GRAVITY . It is evident the gravity is what is acting on the 'PLATE ' . The container of this area of the universe is SPACE-TIME , through which both GRAVITY and the PLATE are functioning . General relativity tell us that GRAVITY is the CURVATURE in SPACE-TIME .

 

What is the LINK , which will enable me to measure ( say by a lazer and a fixed mirror ) ?

 

Mike

Edited September 9, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[geordief]

Yes but I thought light was curved slightly by space-time . Or have I got that wrong ?

 

Mike

I think the spacetime model is curved by the presence of mass-energy and light (along with everything else ) moves along the geodesic.

 

The actual theory of GR doesn't consider (or at least doesn't address the question ) spacetime to be a "thing" that can be curved.

 

If I have been paying attention

Edited September 9, 2016 by geordief

[swansont]

.

Yes but I thought light was curved slightly by space-time . Or have I got that wrong ?

 

 

 

Yes, it is, according to out theory of GR. But you are measuring light in order to test the model. No physical testing ON spacetime is happening.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Yes, it is, according to out theory of GR. But you are measuring light in order to test the model. No physical testing ON spacetime is happening.

.

Well what can I latch on to . In order to make a physical test ON Spacetime ?

 

Mike

[swansont]

.

Well what can I latch on to . In order to make a physical test ON Spacetime ?

 

Mike

 

 

Yes, that's the question I am asking you. I can't answer it, because I don't consider spacetime to be a physical medium, remember?

[geordief]

.

Well what can I latch on to . In order to make a physical test ON Spacetime ?

 

Mike

My understanding is at a very low level but are you not trying to perform a physical test on the geometry itself ?

 

It is as if your architect gave you a plan for your new house and you tried to do a physical test on his plans.

 

It would be nonsensical

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Yes, that's the question I am asking you. I can't answer it, because I don't consider spacetime to be a physical medium, remember?

.

 

Perhaps I can adapt the experiment carried our by " Stranges quote " by

" The PoundRebka experiment "

 

Ref :- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound%E2%80%93Rebka_experiment

 

My understanding is at a very low level but are you not trying to perform a physical test on the geometry itself ?

 

It is as if your architect gave you a plan for your new house and you tried to do a physical test on his plans.

 

It would be nonsensical

.

 

If there is an opinion around that space-time is not a medium . What ever it is , it must be capable of some form of contact with ( even by induction ) . Or something . Otherwise surely " IT DOES NOT EXIST " if Spacetime does not exist , then what was all this work by Einstein and others , is to no avail .

 

For a moment though , even if you are right , then where does the curvature exist ? Is it that , anything moving through the total void of nothingness moves following a curve , as if there was a rubber sheet there , but there is nothing there .

 

That leaves the question how does the information get to all the points of the trajectory , by the dreaded

 

" ACTION AT A DISTANCE " , as it is the influence of the distant Earth , in this instance ?

 

Unless the gravitational field is in some form of " source and sink " configuration ?

 

Mike

Edited September 9, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[geordief]

 

.

 

If there is an opinion around that space-time is not a medium . What ever it is , it must be capable of some form of contact with ( even by induction ) . Or something . Otherwise surely " IT DOES NOT EXIST " if Spacetime does not exist , then what was all this work by Einstein and others , is to no avail .

 

For a moment though , even if you are right , then where does the curvature exist ? Is it that , anything moving through the total void of nothingness moves following a curve , as if there was a rubber sheet there , but there is nothing there .

 

 

 

Mike

Does the description "empty medium" have any meaning? Or an "arena" ,which is a space where things takes place but is not required to actually be a building or enclosed in any way.

 

You can say that national shame and anger was the arena in which Nazism gained a foothold after the settlement at the end of WW1

 

The arena is filled with things and events , is defined by them but has no existence separate from them.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Does the description "empty medium" have any meaning? Or an "arena" ,which is a space where things takes place but is not required to actually be a building or enclosed in any way.

 

You can say that national shame and anger was the arena in which Nazism gained a foothold after the settlement at the end of WW1

 

The arena is filled with things and events , is defined by them but has no existence separate from them.

" Arena " I like that ! Humm! Arena !

 

It still has me wondering quite what the curved rubber sheet style grid emanating away from heavy objects like the earth , is ? If it is spreading out from the earth , like a 360 degree carpet waiting for things to happen in the carpeted arena . I like it is, just for the moment at least .

 

So I have my curved lines of gravitational force emanating out and away from the centre of the earth, through or in the ' arena ' of 'space-time ' .

 

They Appear to be going through my China plates and interacting so as to stimulate and maintain for some time this oscillating motion of the plate.

 

...................

 

Now have we a motion , sustained , in space time , observed and ready for investigation. Where can the laser light come in , as well as the quantum ?

 

 

Mike

Edited September 9, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

 

.

My understanding is at a very low level but are you not trying to perform a physical test on the geometry itself ?

 

It is as if your architect gave you a plan for your new house and you tried to do a physical test on his plans.

 

It would be nonsensical

.

You have put you finger on the exact confusion , that I have !

I have a fear that using math without any contact with reality , is just maths , in the air , so to speak .

Or as you put it , trying to test the plan , rather than the real house .

 

So taking your other analogy , the Arena , is a space for things to happen , but not the real happenings themselves . ( the architects plans )

 

So , trying to tie this together with both SPACE-TIME and MATHMATICS , where Spacetime is the ARENA for things to exist and happen in. MATHMATICS , is the Architectural plans for the house to be built, which is not yet realised. Then the activity we see across the entire COSMOS , Includes this ARENA of SPACE-TIME having maths and other things being made REAL . ( in other words the house being built - the universe we see and examine , before our very eyes !

 

Does that sound right, better, and plausible ?

 

Mike

Some experiments can be done strictly under mathematics. One might think this isn't the case but in some cases the math is sufficient.

Lets take for example "parallel transport" of two free falling objects.

From center of gravity draw a vertical line. At an equal distance on either side place an object. Draw a line from those objects to Center of mass.

The two objects will fall towards the center of gravity "They will deviate from a parallel path"

That deviation determines your spacetime geodesics.

Naturally you can test this with dropping two objects to validate the deviation. However this case is simple geometry relations that doesn't involve adding any force.

In point of detail many of the complex formulas used in GR are geometric associations. Those geometry relations can be mathematically tested.

.

 

I think, only think , what you are saying here , has some bearing on this issue of ( Space - Time ). And Maths/ geometry .

 

But I am a bit in a muddle at this "blurry " edge between geometry and reality , and the need of one for the other ,

 

if ( a) one is just going to calculate something away from reality ,

 

or ( b) one is trying to understand what is actually going on , in order to get at it, poke it , test it ?

 

Mike

Edited September 10, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[geordief]

.

You have put you finger on the exact confusion , that I have !

I have a fear that using math without any contact with reality , is just maths , in the air , so to speak .

Or as you put it , trying to test the plan , rather than the real house .

 

So taking your other analogy , the Arena , is a space for things to happen , but not the real happenings themselves . ( the architects plans )

 

So , trying to tie this together with both SPACE-TIME and MATHMATICS , where Spacetime is the ARENA for things to exist and happen in. MATHMATICS , is the Architectural plans for the house to be built, which is not yet realised. Then the activity we see across the entire COSMOS , Includes this ARENA of SPACE-TIME having maths and other things being made REAL . ( in other words the house being built - the universe we see and examine , before our very eyes !

 

Does that sound right, better, and plausible ?

 

Mike

.

 

Thanks for pointing out that the word "arena" is just an analogy. I like it (sadly not a Greek word -just Latin).

Hopefully ,though it may be a closeish analogy and so more helpful to those of us who struggle with metal imagery.

I feel that some may feel (and GR may assume ) that "events" is all there is and so this "arena" analogy is a sign post to to ....nothing

So long as that (nothing) concept works I am happy to go along with it. Perhaps it It has the very great merit of simplicity.

Edited September 10, 2016 by geordief

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Thanks for pointing out that the word "arena" is just an analogy. I like it (sadly not a Greek word -just Latin).

 

Hopefully ,though it may be a closeish analogy and so more helpful to those of us who struggle with metal imagery.

 

I feel that some may feel (and GR may assume ) that "events" is all there is and so this "arena" analogy is a sign post to to ....nothing

 

So long as that (nothing) concept works I am happy to go along with it. Perhaps it It has the very great merit of simplicity.

O.k.

So what we can say : is

 

We have ourselves a Model .

 

-------------------------------------------------

 

The model consists of , in the first place , an ARENA , ( otherwise known as SPACE-TIME ) , in which to conduct gravitational experiments!

 

The ARENA consists of a region or area which is an open 3 dimensional area completely empty of anything , yet capable of entertaining 'things ' we currently understand ( to some extent ) . What is beyond this ARENA , or what supports this arena , or where this arena came from in the first place , is external to this discussion .

 

The model accepts that mathematical formulae can be introduced so as to describe shapes, interactions , rules and relationships that can be externally generated or descovered as PLANS or TOOLS for introducing guidance , on how certain objects ( such as MASS , ENERGY , etc ) can be introduced to the ARENA and may be constructed or controlled.

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

How does that sound ? So far

 

Mike

Edited September 11, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[geordief]

Well I wouldn't be competent to say whether it would be misleading to use the term "arena" in anything like a scientific way.

 

But ,as I was imagining it ,it would be completely unbounded in the sense that as events occurred it would accommodate them .

 

So if the set of events was finite , then so would the "arena" they played out in and if it was infinite the "arena" would also " be there."

 

But I doubt very much if it could be called a scientific description in any way . The most I could hope for is that it would be neutral and not misleading.

 

But if it was that , then it would be a term that would appeal to me. as it embodies this notion of activity (events) , observation and space in the one term (as well as being a Latin word for the pleasure of using it )

Edited September 11, 2016 by geordief

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Well I wouldn't be competent to say whether it would be misleading to use the term "arena" in anything like a scientific way.

 

But ,as I was imagining it ,it would be completely unbounded in the sense that as events occurred it would accommodate them .

 

So if the set of events was finite , then so would the "arena" they played out in and if it was infinite the "arena" would also " be there."

 

But I doubt very much if it could be called a scientific description in any way . The most I could hope for is that it would be neutral and not misleading.

 

But if it was that , then it would be a term that would appeal to me. as it embodies this notion of activity (events) , observation and space in the one term (as well as being a Latin word for the pleasure of using it )

Maybe , your name will go down in history , as the person who coined the name ' ARENA ' as applying to ' SPACE TIME '

 

Mike

[geordief]

Maybe , your name will go down in history , as the person who coined the name ' ARENA ' as applying to ' SPACE TIME '

 

Mike

I would rather it went up in history but I fear it will indeed go down

Edited September 11, 2016 by geordief

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

I would rather it went up in history but I fear it will indeed go down

.

I like the idea of an ' ARENA ' being there . ( as SPACE-TIME )

 

The ' ARENA ' is not a nothingness , but an actual domain, set aside as a place for Mass with its effect of Gravity to perform its best within this zone. This along with other phenomenon. Nothingness can be outside the 'ARENA' , some place else.

 

The Arena is not just a plan composed of Math alone ( vapourus and without substance ) , but is in fact a REALITY , which facilitates Matter to have measurable effects which we both feel and observe throughout the known Universe in various ways.

 

The " ARENA " , could accept ( as a contributor to order MATHS ) , giving the Rigorous nature to SCIENCE. . But the ARENA may have other players , that do not play by the same rules. Such as HUMAN CONSIOUSNESS, and other random contributors, etc , say ?

 

Now , how the plans become reality and how and where the quantum principle has an effect are sticky questions . But that might well be the nature of reality , which poses us mental problems from time to time!, like some of the QUANTUM anomalies ?

 

Mike

Edited September 12, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

.

ARENA

 

Dictionary Definition . however it is the 2nd definition that is the spirit of this ARENA discussed here .

 

arena

əˈriːnə/

 

Def :-

 

2.

a place or scene of activity, debate, or conflict.

"he has re-entered the political arena"

synonyms: area, scene, sphere, realm, province, domain, sector, forum, territory, theatre, stage, world; More

battleground, battlefield, area/field of conflict, sphere of action/activity, lists

"not all interest groups are able to compete in the political arena"

Origin

 

Although ARENA is being used here (to investigate space -time and what occurres within it ) in an ' analogous ' way .

 

Mike

 

Ref link to definition :- https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=arena+definition&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari

Edited September 12, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

A journey into the Arena ..Quantum - Gravity

 

Ref :- http://youtu.be/vNb3iM_268I

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

A journey into the Arena ..Quantum - Gravity

Ref :- http://youtu.be/vNb3iM_268I

.

As can be seen in the previous Video

 

Prof. Jim al Kahili

 

The early founders of Quantum Mechanics based some of their early research on Observations of Phenomenon , on a ' Bench Top Setting', in the area of electronics , vacuum tubes, emission of light ranging from infra red to Ultra Violet , and it was not long before this led to the establishment of Quanta around the emission of Electro Magnetic Waves from within the Atom . ( electron energy levels, changes)

 

A close relationship was seen by Einstein and others between the ENERGY and MASS and ELECTRO MAGNETISM in a QUANTUM , Environment or Arena . Which continues to this day .

It became a quest by Einstein to forge a link into GRAVITY .

 

What is still not yet totally clear is the possible link between ALL FORCES ( including gravity) in the form of a :-

 

THEORY of QUANTUM GRAVITY .

 

The observation that I have made over the past decade or two is :-

 

That when situated on a heavy , level , polished , Granite Work Top. That :-

 

A small pile of loosely gathered PURE CHINA , PLATES , oscillate back and forward occasionally , with an elongated period of time . Going ( " clack, clack, clack, clack, clack, clack, clack ,.......)

 

I can only beleive as ' China' is a very good , electrical, non magnetic , insulator .

 

In this Arena GRAVITY can be the sole restorative , oscillating , force , acting on the China plates.

 

I am of a mind that this phenomenon could act as the basis of an Experiment , which could shed some light on the nature and behaviour of Gravity , in this Arena of Space-Time .

 

As can be seen there is already both :-

 

SPACE ( movement of accurate , measurable , distance, up and down through the gravitational field, - - . )

and

 

TIME ( specific oscillations in accurately, repeatable , periods of time ) .

 

 

possibly quantised ,not sure at this stage

 

 

MIKE

Edited September 13, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Phi for All]

.

I like the idea of an ' ARENA ' being there . ( as SPACE-TIME )

 

The ' ARENA ' is not a nothingness , but an actual domain, set aside as a place for Mass with its effect of Gravity to perform its best within this zone. This along with other phenomenon. Nothingness can be outside the 'ARENA' , some place else.

 

!

Moderator Note

This thread is taking an all-too-familiar turn. Mike, you keep forcing these threads into the same indefensible, spacetime-is-a-physical-medium argument. You haven't been able to support that, which should show you something, but remain convinced it's a viable pursuit. Passion is good as long as it doesn't slip down over our eyes.

 

Thread closed.