The (lack of) egoism in suicide

[Function]

Hello everyone

 

I recently posted a status update to which I commented 4 times. I then found it to be interesting enough - if I dare say so myself - to start a thread about it.

 

Feel free to give your opinions on the matter; there is no true or false here, I'd love to read different points of view.

 

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I find it very close-minded, to say the least, when people say that suicide is an act of egoism. Agreed, it isn't very altruistic, but suggesting that it is the most selfish act ever turns me instantly raging.

 

Because, I think, but I might be wrong, you then remain in an impossible state of foreseeing the consequences it may have for others, only able to perceive your own misery and lack of mental health. So no, I don't think suicide is selfish, and though I acknowledge that it is not the only way out, and remains a wrong, if not the most wrong solution to one's problems (lack of mental well-being), it is perceived as a last resort, as a final solution, and I don't think you can blame someone for trying to solve his/her own problems, be it within the lack of ability of foreseeing the impact it'll have on others.

 

Reason for considering a mental health and well-being as the most valuable possession, and not family and loved ones: without mental health and well-being, I'm not convinved you can appreciate the love and care of, and the value of your loved ones.

 

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When mentally broken, there is no longer such thing as egoïsm, altruïsm ... Who are we to judge such thing, not knowing what hell they've went through

 

So ... Opinions, points of view, statements, ... ?

 

F

Edited September 8, 2016 by Function

[tar]

Function,

 

I once stayed up all night with the sister of a girlfriend that wanted to kill herself. I talked her out of it, and saw she is still around, 40 years later, by finding her on facebook. One of my arguments, was that I cared if she killed herself, and wanted her not to. Another argument, was, in condradiction to your thinking, that her sister and mother and father and other family and friends, would be devastated and she should not hurt them in that manner. Plus, there is nothing so bad, no pain, no heartache, no disappointment, that is so bad, as to exchange the situation for death, which is equivalent to having nothing at all. I do not remember my other arguments, nor what we talked about all night, but I am proud that my thinking was clear enough and correct enough that she decided to live.

 

Since, about 10 years ago, I had an insight about suicide, that I think goes to some of what you said about it. That is, I think people kill themselves when they have no control over their lives. And like you said, suicide is a final act of victory, of having complete control over the thing. Problem is, after killing yourself, you are not around to bask in the victory. Sooo... it is sort of stupid, because you have not gained control of anything. Bottom line, there is no reason to kill yourself, because you will be dead, after the act, and that will please no one.

 

So it is not a selfish act, nor a brave act, nor a strong act, nor an altruistic act. It is just a stupid act, with no purpose or value what so ever.

 

You have to hang on to life, because it is the only thing you have. Enjoy it, and make it so others can do the same.

 

Regards, TAR

work at gaining a bit more control over your life...it can never be worse, more of a chore, more of a bore, than being dead...logically speaking

Edited September 9, 2016 by tar

[Thorham]

It is just a stupid act, with no purpose or value what so ever.

 

Say that again when you're a sex slave, have been for years, and you have no way out.

[tar]

Thorham,

 

I am sure there are situations where one has very little to no control over their lives. Hence there are many suicides. But, if you have any control what-so-ever it is worth working at increasing your control, even at the risk of death. The trial, like the escape attempt from prison camp, is better than just giving up and hanging yourself. What is the downside on trying to escape? Worst that can happen is you are killed in the attempt, which is what you were going to elect in the case of suicide.

 

Those girls escaped from their captor out in Minnesota or where ever that was a few years ago, where the guy kept them as sex slaves. Escape is better than suicide.

 

Regards, TAR

[Elite Engineer]

I've heard of stories of people wanting to kill themselves for the remembrance, pity or "fame" people will have of them. I believe the comic Mitch Hedberg said (and I'm paraphrasing), "...If I died in 30 years no one would care. If I died tomorrow, I'd be on the front page". As you may know Mitch died at the age of 37, via coke OD.

 

I get what Mitch was saying. This may be a similar motivation for suicidal people. They may think, "If I die today, by my own hand, I'll be mourned, and talked about..". In some cases the ultimate ego "high". However, there is one very pressing issue with this thought. How will you ever know the mourning, the praise, and the pity? To this day, my fiancee whom I have been with for 8 years, has no idea how much I love her, and vice versa. Yes I can say, "I love you an infinite amount".. But what does that mean? She can say the same to me, and I will still not fully grasp the reality of the amount she loves me.

 

So, if you kill yourself, perhaps for lack of ego, or to gain posthumous ego...how will you benefit from it, if you're not there to be aware of it?

 

~EE

Edited September 10, 2016 by Elite Engineer

[tar]

Elite Engineer,

 

 

Interesting point. The posthumous ego. I agree that you can not enjoy the situation after you die, but there is a concern we have, none-the-less with the world after we die. We buy life insurance, and protect the planet for future generations. Ego might indeed be considered, after death.

 

Regards, TAR

[StringJunky]

Function,

 

I once stayed up all night with the sister of a girlfriend that wanted to kill herself. I talked her out of it, and saw she is still around, 40 years later, by finding her on facebook. One of my arguments, was that I cared if she killed herself, and wanted her not to. Another argument, was, in condradiction to your thinking, that her sister and mother and father and other family and friends, would be devastated and she should not hurt them in that manner. Plus, there is nothing so bad, no pain, no heartache, no disappointment, that is so bad, as to exchange the situation for death, which is equivalent to having nothing at all. I do not remember my other arguments, nor what we talked about all night, but I am proud that my thinking was clear enough and correct enough that she decided to live.

 

Since, about 10 years ago, I had an insight about suicide, that I think goes to some of what you said about it. That is, I think people kill themselves when they have no control over their lives. And like you said, suicide is a final act of victory, of having complete control over the thing. Problem is, after killing yourself, you are not around to bask in the victory. Sooo... it is sort of stupid, because you have not gained control of anything. Bottom line, there is no reason to kill yourself, because you will be dead, after the act, and that will please no one.

 

So it is not a selfish act, nor a brave act, nor a strong act, nor an altruistic act. It is just a stupid act, with no purpose or value what so ever.

 

You have to hang on to life, because it is the only thing you have. Enjoy it, and make it so others can do the same.

 

Regards, TAR

work at gaining a bit more control over your life...it can never be worse, more of a chore, more of a bore, than being dead...logically speaking

You have a very narrow and judgemental view of the motivations of suicidal people. It's only stupid to you... the suicidal person doesn't give a f- what you think.

 

Contrary to your view, I think some suicidal people are profoundly level headed and in control, like those with a terminal illness or otherwise insufferable existence. Some people may kill themselves for philosophical reasons... like because they have realised life and most people suck at the core level. Perfectly valid reasons to shrug off ones mortal coil imo.

Edited September 10, 2016 by StringJunky

[tar]

StringJunky,

 

 

Well I suppose you can say the whole thing is fruitless, because you die in the end anyway, but that is fatalistic thinking which might be level headed, but which denies the possibility for the life and enjoyment in between birth and death.

 

Level headed thinking wise, what would you suggest the purpose of life is, if not to be alive?

 

Regards, TAR

and I think the suicidal person did, in the case of my girlfriends sister, care what I thought

I get your point that level headed people can rationalize their own death, and be in complete control of the decision, but they are making the decision because they are hopelessly and critically ill which they have no way of correcting. As in they have no control.

[StringJunky]

Level headed thinking wise, what would you suggest the purpose of life is, if not to be alive?

The point is that one doesn't choose to be alive therefore, imo, one has the right to choose go back to a state of non-existence.

 

One may choose to to die to save someone's life; has that person's life no purpose?

[tar]

I saw a book at my dad's authored by James Joyce. He is a smart and level headed guy, but his picture on the cover looked really really sad. What is the point, of being overly pessimistic about life? Even if you are right, you are sad. I like feeling good about being alive.

StringJunky,

 

Wait. One does not choose to be alive in the first place so one has the choice to undo the thing? Don't completely follow.

 

 

Regards, TAR

If you die to save others you are doing a good thing. Like Jeremy Glick.

[StringJunky]

StringJunky,

 

Wait. One does not choose to be alive in the first place so one has the choice to undo the thing? Don't completely follow.

 

As far as I'm concerned, yes. I own myself, with the caveat that no one else is dependent on me e.g. children.

[tar]

I think life is a victory over the universe's tendency toward entropy.

Ok you own yourself. So do I. But life is your ONLY possession. You lose it, you have nothing.

Unless you leave something of yourself for somebody else.

then you don't have it, but somebody else does

Jeremy Glick was from my town. I never knew him but I know he died to save the lives of people in Washington, maybe the capital or the white house, or whatever the target was. A really powerful sacrifice on his part. Makes me cry on occasion to think about it.

[Elite Engineer]

 

 

.. like because they have realised life and most people suck at the core level. .

I would laugh harder if this weren't so true