Do liberals think Islam should be protected from Criticism

[Phi for All]

Phi for all, Sharia law is not found in the bible.

 

Are you kidding me? Much of it comes directly from the Bible.

 

Chopping off hands for transgressions is from Deuteronomy 25.

 

Honor killings?

If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, entices you secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known You shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him; but you shall kill him You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the LORD your God And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.

 

Deuteronomy 13.

 

Men can beat an insubordinate wife all over the place in the Bible.

 

Criticizing God is a big part of the 10 Commandments.

 

Sure, there are more specific laws in Sharia that aren't in the Bible, but then Islam also doesn't practice all of the 613 Mosaic laws either. The whole point is that it's only extremists who are insisting on any kind of theocracy. It's not going to work in a western country unless someplace like the US lets themselves get tricked into letting evangelical Christian extremists into political office. The kind of people who put their god and what it wants ahead of the People they're sworn to protect and lead don't deserve those public offices, imo. There is a very good reason why churches shouldn't control states.

[Arete]

Force or subject no, but all of them believed the United States should be ruled under Sharia law. It would make us happier I was always told. I always told them it would lead to bloodshed. They seemed okay with that.

 

And this is why the plural of anecdotes is not evidence.

 

[Tampitump]

When I point out the barbaric, absolutely asinine prescriptions in the old testamtent that the Quran only aspires to be as wicked as, Christians always use the soft euphemism of "Well, that was the OLD TESTAMENT. We don't go by that. Jesus gave us a new covenant." Blah blah fucking goddamn blah. lol

[MigL]

I don't see what your chart accomplishes Arete.

A large number of the countries in your chart, a lot of which are overwhelmingly Muslim, support replacing secular law with Sharia law among Muslims.

And if they had a candidate in the next election who proposed moving to Sharia law, he would easily get elected.

That is if any of those places had free democratic elections.

 

The point is that even in the Southern US, no one is proposing a return to Biblical law.

Can we honestly say the same about Sharia ?

[DrmDoc]

Force or subject no, but all of them believed the United States should be ruled under Sharia law. It would make us happier I was always told. I always told them it would lead to bloodshed. They seemed okay with that.

 

Ok, let me see if I got this right...you were friends with Muslims with whom you voluntarily discussed Sharia law, correct? They did not attempt to force their beliefs on you or engage in any apparent effort to change the laws of our nation other than to express their belief to you that Sharia law would be good for America, correct? This doesn't seem to me to be quite the major issue you've made this out to be, particularly if it was you not they who broach the subject. I get that you think Sharia law is terrible and those who believe in it should be criticized or ridiculed. However, I can't get upset about the ideology people hold, no matter how extreme or because they disagree with mine, particularly when they've made no attempt to force their ideology upon me or my way of life. If that should ever happen, I would vigorously challenge and resist their efforts.

[Arete]

I don't see what your chart accomplishes Arete.

 

The point is that the desire to implement Sharia law is extremely geographically variable. From 99% in Afghanistan, through to 8% in Azerbaijan. You can't collectively state that "muslims" want Sharia law in the US when there's such a heterogeneous landscape of ideologies under the umbrella of Islam.

[swansont]

First of all, there seems to be a gross misunderstanding of what Sharia is. It's not "law" as we understand it — it's not a set of statutes. Sharia means "the path to be followed"; it's what you need to do to be considered a good Muslim. There are a lot of things Christians do (or are supposed to do) that would be considered the analogue of Sharia — any teaching from the Bible. Going to church on a regular basis. Confessing your sins, if you're a Catholic. Tithing. Not eating shellfish, and other foods to avoid. The kind of cloth your garments should be made of.

 

"While often thought of as a legal system, Shariah covers personal and collective spheres of daily life, and has three components – belief, character, and actions. Only a small portion of the “action” component relates to law. In fact, only about 80 of the Quran’s 6,236 verses are about specific legal injunctions."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/29/sharia-law-usa-states-ban_n_3660813.html

 

To suggest to a Muslim that they should reject sharia is to tell them they should discard their religion. It's a ridiculous suggestion. It's like asking a Christian to stop following the Bible (to whatever extent that they do)

 

The US constitution prevents the adoption of sharia, but by the same token, also prevents the government from keeping people from following it, if that's what they choose to do. The only conflict is where existing law prevents some actions, but we already have precedent on this. You can't cite your belief in human sacrifice as a justification for doing that. Beliefs are protected, but actions are not.

 

———

 

As far as the broader picture goes, we have a great analogy that I don't think has been brought up yet. The KKK purports to be a Christian organization, but I don't think anyone uses them as an indictment of Christianity. It's generally accepted that they are an extreme group with distorted views, and their extremism is their fault, not the fault of the religion they pervert. It's the same with Islamic extremism.

[DrmDoc]

First of all, there seems to be a gross misunderstanding of what Sharia is. It's not "law" as we understand it — it's not a set of statutes. Sharia means "the path to be followed"; it's what you need to do to be considered a good Muslim. There are a lot of things Christians do (or are supposed to do) that would be considered the analogue of Sharia — any teaching from the Bible. Going to church on a regular basis. Confessing your sins, if you're a Catholic. Tithing. Not eating shellfish, and other foods to avoid. The kind of cloth your garments should be made of.

 

"While often thought of as a legal system, Shariah covers personal and collective spheres of daily life, and has three components – belief, character, and actions. Only a small portion of the “action” component relates to law. In fact, only about 80 of the Quran’s 6,236 verses are about specific legal injunctions."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/29/sharia-law-usa-states-ban_n_3660813.html

 

To suggest to a Muslim that they should reject sharia is to tell them they should discard their religion. It's a ridiculous suggestion. It's like asking a Christian to stop following the Bible (to whatever extent that they do)

 

The US constitution prevents the adoption of sharia, but by the same token, also prevents the government from keeping people from following it, if that's what they choose to do. The only conflict is where existing law prevents some actions, but we already have precedent on this. You can't cite your belief in human sacrifice as a justification for doing that. Beliefs are protected, but actions are not.

 

———

 

As far as the broader picture goes, we have a great analogy that I don't think has been brought up yet. The KKK purports to be a Christian organization, but I don't think anyone uses them as an indictment of Christianity. It's generally accepted that they are an extreme group with distorted views, and their extremism is their fault, not the fault of the religion they pervert. It's the same with Islamic extremism.

 

This is the kind of informed investigative support of an opinion that I appreciate and recommend. The kind of support that elevates intelligent discussion.

[waitforufo]

 

And this is why the plural of anecdotes is not evidence.

 

And they blame the west for the fact that they live in backward, oppressive countries that refuse to join the modern world.

 

 

First of all, there seems to be a gross misunderstanding of what Sharia is. It's not "law" as we understand it — it's not a set of statutes. Sharia means "the path to be followed"; it's what you need to do to be considered a good Muslim. There are a lot of things Christians do (or are supposed to do) that would be considered the analogue of Sharia — any teaching from the Bible. Going to church on a regular basis. Confessing your sins, if you're a Catholic. Tithing. Not eating shellfish, and other foods to avoid. The kind of cloth your garments should be made of.

 

"While often thought of as a legal system, Shariah covers personal and collective spheres of daily life, and has three components – belief, character, and actions. Only a small portion of the “action” component relates to law. In fact, only about 80 of the Quran’s 6,236 verses are about specific legal injunctions."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/29/sharia-law-usa-states-ban_n_3660813.html

 

To suggest to a Muslim that they should reject sharia is to tell them they should discard their religion. It's a ridiculous suggestion. It's like asking a Christian to stop following the Bible (to whatever extent that they do)

 

The US constitution prevents the adoption of sharia, but by the same token, also prevents the government from keeping people from following it, if that's what they choose to do. The only conflict is where existing law prevents some actions, but we already have precedent on this. You can't cite your belief in human sacrifice as a justification for doing that. Beliefs are protected, but actions are not.

 

———

 

As far as the broader picture goes, we have a great analogy that I don't think has been brought up yet. The KKK purports to be a Christian organization, but I don't think anyone uses them as an indictment of Christianity. It's generally accepted that they are an extreme group with distorted views, and their extremism is their fault, not the fault of the religion they pervert. It's the same with Islamic extremism.

 

Hey here is a question for you. What's the religion of the people that blow up people at Boston marathon, or government employees in San Bernardino, or shoot up bars in Florida? That's just the US. Europe has suffered more. Where they Christians? Where they Catholics, Episcopalians, Lutherans, or Methodists? Were they members of the KKK or Christian Identity followers?

 

Islam has always been more than just a religion. Islam is also a political ideology.

[MigL]

When did this become about Muslims living in North America ?

They have left their oppressive societies for a reason, haven't they ?

I thought we were talking about countries where Islam is the major religious institution ?

 

And again, in the US, where the major religion is Catholicism, most Catholics ignore 99% of the bible ( except for Creation in the Southern US, of course ), and no-one is pushing for a return to Biblical rules ( Ok Swansont, not laws ), not even those idiots in the KKK.

[imatfaal]

...

And again, in the US, where the major religion is Catholicism, most Catholics ignore 99% of the bible ( except for Creation in the Southern US, of course ), and no-one is pushing for a return to Biblical rules ( Ok Swansont, not laws ), not even those idiots in the KKK.

 

But the move to proscribe abortion, contraception, and women's self-determination over their own reproduction in general are clearly based on the patriarchal nature of abrahamic religion. And they are being actively pushed at every level of legislature in the United States.

[MigL]

And these 'pushes' are always subject to the workings of secular law, to be obtained trough elections and referendums.

As opposed to Muslim countries where laws are 'handed down' by clerics.

[swansont]

And they blame the west for the fact that they live in backward, oppressive countries that refuse to join the modern world.

 

 

 

Hey here is a question for you. What's the religion of the people that blow up people at Boston marathon, or government employees in San Bernardino, or shoot up bars in Florida? That's just the US. Europe has suffered more. Where they Christians? Where they Catholics, Episcopalians, Lutherans, or Methodists? Were they members of the KKK or Christian Identity followers?

 

Islam has always been more than just a religion. Islam is also a political ideology.

 

 

 

What's the religion of people that lynched blacks in the south in the US? Were they Islamic? The KKK is also a political ideology.

 

 

The KKK being comprised of Christians does not condemn Christianity. Why does this very basic logic escape you? (Or does this condemn Christianity, in your view?)

[dimreepr]

Hey here is a question for you. What's the religion of the people that blow up people at Boston marathon, or government employees in San Bernardino, or shoot up bars in Florida? That's just the US. Europe has suffered more. Where they Christians? Where they Catholics, Episcopalians, Lutherans, or Methodists? Were they members of the KKK or Christian Identity followers?

 

Islam has always been more than just a religion. Islam is also a political ideology.

 

 

Wow, that post (+1) really did a flyby on you , you may as well ask, in what country were they born or what's their favourite >insert anything<...

Edited September 14, 2016 by dimreepr

[DrmDoc]

Islam has always been more than just a religion. Islam is also a political ideology.

 

And Christianity has and is not? Where is your equal outrage? Why is there enmity for one ideology and no enmity for other ideologies whose devotees perpetrate the same transgressions?

[swansont]

When did this become about Muslims living in North America ?

They have left their oppressive societies for a reason, haven't they ?

I thought we were talking about countries where Islam is the major religious institution ?

 

And again, in the US, where the major religion is Catholicism, most Catholics ignore 99% of the bible ( except for Creation in the Southern US, of course ), and no-one is pushing for a return to Biblical rules ( Ok Swansont, not laws ), not even those idiots in the KKK.

 

 

 

Really? Laws restricting a woman's right to make choices about pregnancy are not based on religion? Do you expect anybody to believe that? This furor about saying "Merry Christmas" is not about religion?

[Phi for All]

And again, in the US, where the major religion is Catholicism, most Catholics ignore 99% of the bible ( except for Creation in the Southern US, of course ), and no-one is pushing for a return to Biblical rules ( Ok Swansont, not laws ), not even those idiots in the KKK.

 

Well, if you were to take the KKK, the Westboro Baptist Church, Christian Identity, and some of the other cells of US religious extremists, arm them with lots of money, guns, and explosives, stir up their ideological commitments to their God so they can use that to gain power and followers, they'd push for a White Christian Only society. Whether that would become a theocracy is speculative.

 

But you're right, I don't see many militant Catholics joining. Maybe because waterboarding doesn't hold a candle to what the nuns would do to you?

[Strange]

That's just the US. Europe has suffered more. Where they Christians? Where they Catholics, Episcopalians, Lutherans, or Methodists?

 

Unlike most Americans, most of the people in Europe have grown up with terrorism (certainly those over 40 or so). For most of my life, I felt I had to be hyper-aware when in London's West End, especially at times like Christmas. Luckily those days are long past and it is now much safer and I never worry about it. (I still remember the amazing sense of relief the first year I could walk down Oxford Street without a niggling fear at the back of my mind.)

 

And, yes, they were mainly Christians. In the UK, at least. In Germany or Italy they tended to be far left groups.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Strange

[waitforufo]

And again, in the US, where the major religion is Catholicism, most Catholics ignore 99% of the bible ( except for Creation in the Southern US, of course ), and no-one is pushing for a return to Biblical rules ( Ok Swansont, not laws ), not even those idiots in the KKK.

Very few Catholics in the Southern US. Other than that great post.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/09/150917-data-points-how-catholic-population-has-shifted-in-the-united-states/

 

 

But the move to proscribe abortion, contraception, and women's self-determination over their own reproduction in general are clearly based on the patriarchal nature of abrahamic religion. And they are being actively pushed at every level of legislature in the United States.

Abortion is legal in the US and will remain so regardless of what the leaders in Christian churches want. Why? Because we have a secular government.

 

 

 

 

What's the religion of people that lynched blacks in the south in the US? Were they Islamic? The KKK is also a political ideology.

 

 

The KKK being comprised of Christians does not condemn Christianity. Why does this very basic logic escape you? (Or does this condemn Christianity, in your view?)

That "lynched blacks" is past tense. The KKK was only proficient at the atrocities you mention when they were the terrorist wing of the Democratic party.

 

 

And Christianity has and is not? Where is your equal outrage? Why is there enmity for one ideology and no enmity for other ideologies whose devotees perpetrate the same transgressions?

No Christianity is not a political ideology particularly in the US. If they were, christian churches would be taxed.

 

 

 

 

Really? Laws restricting a woman's right to make choices about pregnancy are not based on religion? Do you expect anybody to believe that? This furor about saying "Merry Christmas" is not about religion?

No, laws restricting abortion in the US are based on judicial rulings. Edit: Christmas is a national holiday in the US and is therefor a secular holiday. Saying Merry Christmas is no different than saying Marry Arbor Day.

 

 

Well, if you were to take the KKK, the Westboro Baptist Church, Christian Identity, and some of the other cells of US religious extremists, arm them with lots of money, guns, and explosives, stir up their ideological commitments to their God so they can use that to gain power and followers, they'd push for a White Christian Only society. Whether that would become a theocracy is speculative.

 

But you're right, I don't see many militant Catholics joining. Maybe because waterboarding doesn't hold a candle to what the nuns would do to you?

We have the right to bear arms in the US. All the groups you mention can freely purchase weapons. If they did that and pushed for a White Christian Only society, they would be crushed primarily by Christians. Edit: I went to Catholic school and the worst thing a nun ever did to me was rap my knuckles with a wooden ruler. I deserved it.

 

Now isn't this topic "Do liberals think Islam should be protected from Criticism?" I have heard a lot of criticism of Christians from people who seem to be liberals, but no criticism of Islam. If the the answer to the topic is No liberals to not think Islam should be protected from criticism, then please give me an example. Criticism provides an opportunity for individuals and groups to improve. I provided my criticism. Islam should promote secularism so it can join the modern world. So let's hear some criticism of Islam from you liberals out there.

Edited September 14, 2016 by waitforufo

[Phi for All]

We have the right to bear arms in the US. All the groups you mention can freely purchase weapons. If they did that and pushed for a White Christian Only society, they would be crushed primarily by Christians.

 

Oh, please. You'd be just as helpless to stop them as mainstream muslims are with their own extremists. What's your church group going to do against a few truckloads of David Dukes with RPGs and fully automatic assault rifles, who make it clear they're fighting the Trump fight, and if you interfere with their patriotic duty, your whole family will be wiped out?

 

The reason I don't criticize Islam for its extremists is the same reason I don't criticize Christianity for its extremists. Extremists use religion like a tool to gather power and followers. It's not right to criticize a tool for the way the wielder misuses it.

[DrmDoc]

No Christianity is not a political ideology particularly in the US. If they were, christian churches would be taxed.

 

In our Pledge of Allegiance, "...one nation, under God, indivisible.." and on our money, "In God We Trust", isn't religious ideology a cornerstone of our democracy? An ideology heavily influenced by Christianity? Granted, Christianity is not a political belief but it's ideology is frequently the focal of political debate and legislation.

Edited September 14, 2016 by DrmDoc

[Delta1212]

 

In our Pledge of Allegiance, "...one nation, under God, indivisible.." and on our money, "In God We Trust", isn't religious ideology a cornerstone of our democracy? An ideology heavily influenced by Christianity? Granted, Christianity is not a political belief but it's ideology is frequently the focal of political debate and legislation.

Well, both of those are examples of some more recent moulding added to the facade of the building to distinguish us from the godless Commies rather than being actual foundational aspects of the overall structure.

[swansont]

No, laws restricting abortion in the US are based on judicial rulings.

 

 

Oh, come on. Judges strike down the laws that were passed. They don't pass the laws in the first place.

 

Edit: Christmas is a national holiday in the US and is therefor a secular holiday. Saying Merry Christmas is no different than saying Marry Arbor Day.

 

Actually it's very different, and brings up another topic: marriage equality, which is another area where religious influence is felt in the laws that have been passed. (and subsequently struck down by judges). Can you actually marry a holiday?

[waitforufo]

 

Oh, please. You'd be just as helpless to stop them as mainstream muslims are with their own extremists. What's your church group going to do against a few truckloads of David Dukes with RPGs and fully automatic assault rifles, who make it clear they're fighting the Trump fight, and if you interfere with their patriotic duty, your whole family will be wiped out?

 

The reason I don't criticize Islam for its extremists is the same reason I don't criticize Christianity for its extremists. Extremists use religion like a tool to gather power and followers. It's not right to criticize a tool for the way the wielder misuses it.

I'm not talking about my church group. I'm talking about Christians in the police and the military. Virtually all the Christians in the US, both civilian and military, would support crushing White Christian Identity groups if they were acting as you suggest. Your suggestion is simply paranoid ranting. Radical Islamic terrorist are attacking us right now, and the same Christians are doing their best to crush them as well.

 

Also my criticism wasn't just directed at Muslim extremists. You saw the chart provided earlier. In many Muslim countries, a large majorities of Muslims would prefer a Sharia government over secular government. My criticism was directed at those main stream Muslims.

 

Well, both of those are examples of some more recent moulding added to the facade of the building to distinguish us from the godless Commies rather than being actual foundational aspects of the overall structure.

Thank you.

 

 

Oh, come on. Judges strike down the laws that were passed. They don't pass the laws in the first place.

 

 

Actually it's very different, and brings up another topic: marriage equality, which is another area where religious influence is felt in the laws that have been passed. (and subsequently struck down by judges). Can you actually marry a holiday?

Homonym errors are very common with dyslectics. Do you make fun of people with downs syndrome as well?

Also, how did marriage equality work out in the end?

[DrmDoc]

Well, both of those are examples of some more recent moulding added to the facade of the building to distinguish us from the godless Commies rather than being actual foundational aspects of the overall structure.

 

Perhaps not cornerstone but prominent among the ideas behind contentious legislation.