Do liberals think Islam should be protected from Criticism

[waitforufo]

Again, the topic is criticism of Islam. Again, I see lots of criticism of the US, and Christians. For those criticizing the US and Christians, try substituting caliphate, and Muslim for US and Christian and speculate how well that would work out.

[DrmDoc]

Again, the topic is criticism of Islam. Again, I see lots of criticism of the US, and Christians. For those criticizing the US and Christians, try substituting caliphate, and Muslim for US and Christian and speculate how well that would work out.

 

To the topic, Islam should receive no more criticism than any other religion. In other words, Islam should be granted the same measure of respect that other ideologies receive particularly when the extremist elements of other ideologies are essentially no different.

[Phi for All]

Also my criticism wasn't just directed at Muslim extremists. You saw the chart provided earlier. In many Muslim countries, a large majorities of Muslims would prefer a Sharia government over secular government. My criticism was directed at those main stream Muslims.

 

You have a very firm idea of what you think a "Sharia government" would be like, but you have no way of knowing if the people polled feel the same way about it (I'd say you have a very extremist view of Sharia). If you polled the US that way, you'd have some people saying they want a Christian government, and you'd be equally clueless what they actually mean by it ("First, we abolish Halloween, then abortions and Mormons...").

 

As swansont's earlier link showed, Sharia to most of Islam is a personal path, an approach to a moral life with some components that can be applied to law. But if you bother to do a little reasonable, critical checking, you can find that even in Egypt, a classical Shariah system, they don't incorporate very much of what you think they do, i.e., cutting the hands off thieves.

[swansont]

 

Also, how did marriage equality work out in the end?

 

 

Looks like it's worked out really well. Do you not agree?

[CharonY]

And these 'pushes' are always subject to the workings of secular law, to be obtained trough elections and referendums.

As opposed to Muslim countries where laws are 'handed down' by clerics.

 

So in other words, if people enacted law based on Sharia using the regular mechanisms, it would not be an issue? And are you sure that in all Muslim countries law is enacted by clerics? Also, you may be aware of Muslim countries who actually do not use Sharia law as a legal framework?

There is an interconnection between the legal system and how much people adhere (or don't) to certain belief systems, of course. However, the discussion was kicked off by polls indicating the attitude of the population. And while the US has a secular system, its people are not 99% secular.

[waitforufo]

 

 

Looks like it's worked out really well. Do you not agree?

I have commented many times on Science Forums regarding marriage equality or gay marriage. Science Forums has a search engine. Try searching "waitforufo, gay marriage." Please report back your findings.

[Strange]

Try searching "waitforufo, gay marriage." Please report back your findings.

 

 

It just finds the three posts in this thread.

[waitforufo]

 

 

It just finds the three posts in this thread.

Search from the home page. Not from within this topic.

[Strange]

Doh.

[swansont]

I have commented many times on Science Forums regarding marriage equality or gay marriage. Science Forums has a search engine. Try searching "waitforufo, gay marriage." Please report back your findings.

 

You're for it, or at least you were in 2009, which is the last time you stated a position with that phrase. That's not what the question was, though. You asked how marriage equality has worked out.

 

Also, this is the second post today where you have implied that I should know certain details about you and your posting history. I don't. Whether you've mentioned your job, your family, whether you're left-handed, or a host of other details, I have not commited them to memory. So what I post is not to make fun of or insult you. A pity you can't say the same.

[MigL]

Wow, every time I leave and come back these topics in the Politics section have moved so much its almost impossible to pick up from where you left off.

Excellent discussions though.

 

A point waitforufo made cought my eye...

Some of you guys have often said things could be improved in the Western World if Religion disappeared, as it often hinders society's advancement ( you know who you are, don't make me go back and read posts in the Religion section to prove it ), and I would agree with you.

However Western society is mostly secular, with 'pockets' of Religious fervor and even less fundamentalism.

The Middle East, on the other hand, is mostly Religious fervor, quite a bit of fundamentalism ( all those rioters, in all those cities burning American flags and president effigies ), and 'pockets' of secularism.

 

So, how could things be improved in the Middle East ?

Don't hold back, give full and complete criticism.

 

( and don't just say 'by getting rid of Israel', as some of you may already be thinking )

[CharonY]

 

 

So, how could things be improved in the Middle East ?

Don't hold back, give full and complete criticism.

 

There are a number of things an off the top of my head would be: stable and improved governance, rule of law, more democracy. Parallel to that (or maybe even before), addressing societal inequality, increase overall standard of living, civil rights, political freedom, better education etc.

Of course, better educated people could do a much better job in evaluating this matter. However, since these factors appear to be drivers in the Western world, it would make sense that they would also influence other societies.

But obviously, things may not always develop predictably as current Turkey or European history has shown.

[Willie71]

Wow, every time I leave and come back these topics in the Politics section have moved so much its almost impossible to pick up from where you left off.

Excellent discussions though.

 

A point waitforufo made cought my eye...

Some of you guys have often said things could be improved in the Western World if Religion disappeared, as it often hinders society's advancement ( you know who you are, don't make me go back and read posts in the Religion section to prove it ), and I would agree with you.

However Western society is mostly secular, with 'pockets' of Religious fervor and even less fundamentalism.

The Middle East, on the other hand, is mostly Religious fervor, quite a bit of fundamentalism ( all those rioters, in all those cities burning American flags and president effigies ), and 'pockets' of secularism.

 

So, how could things be improved in the Middle East ?

Don't hold back, give full and complete criticism.

 

( and don't just say 'by getting rid of Israel', as some of you may already be thinking )

Instead of focusing on getting rid of the religion, maybe promoting the social conditions that decrease religiosity. Decreasing poverty, fear, instability, and increasing standards of living, improving education and access to education, oh yeah, and stop bombing the shit out of everyone or supporting brutal dictatorial regimes would go a long way to shifting toward secular society. Iran was quite secular until the US got involved a few decades ago. People think of the middle act as a bunch of guys in tents with camels in the desert. That is pretty far from the truth.

[waitforufo]

Decreasing poverty

Probably the number one economic problem caused by Islam is their prohibition of usury. Not just unreasonably high rates of interest, money cannot be borrowed or lent at any interest rate. No country can have a modern economy without borrowing and lending money at interest.

 

Linked to the above is Islam's preference for feudalism. Probably the only political system that can function without usury. It's like muslims long to be surfs.

Edited September 15, 2016 by waitforufo

[Phi for All]

No country can have a modern economy with borrowing and lending money at interest.

 

This is obviously not true. Unless you have a very narrow, conservative, stifling view of what "modern economy" means. Aren't many Islamic countries doing business in the trillions of dollars? And I believe many activities are considered exempt, or fatwahs have been issued that allow for charging interest. I think this may be another one of those areas where you heard something extremely bad, and applied it to a whole big group.

 

I thought usury was easily avoided by having a partner who fronts capital in exchange for labor, at a prescribed ration. Like instead of loaning you money at 10%, I buy in as your equal partner until you pay me off, fronting money to equal 40% while you provide labor to equal 60%.

[waitforufo]

 

This is obviously not true. Unless you have a very narrow, conservative, stifling view of what "modern economy" means. Aren't many Islamic countries doing business in the trillions of dollars? And I believe many activities are considered exempt, or fatwahs have been issued that allow for charging interest. I think this may be another one of those areas where you heard something extremely bad, and applied it to a whole big group.

 

I thought usury was easily avoided by having a partner who fronts capital in exchange for labor, at a prescribed ration. Like instead of loaning you money at 10%, I buy in as your equal partner until you pay me off, fronting money to equal 40% while you provide labor to equal 60%.

Really? So you are going to get a partner when you want to buy a car, or a house, or go to college? This is a huge problem in muslim countries. Your partner concept just make you a surf to your partner. Zero usury is also at the origin of the Zionist/Muslim problem. Muslims couldn't borrow money to buy land from there former feudal lords, now land owners, so the land was sold to Zionists. Then the Zionists kick the former Muslim surfs, now tenants, off the land they purchased. Ever wonder why Palestinians claim a right of return against Zionists instead of Israelis. The Palestinians want to go back to what they consider to be illegal or immoral lands sold by their former feudal lords, now land owners, to the Zionists pre 1948.

[Tampitump]

Instead of focusing on getting rid of the religion, maybe promoting the social conditions that decrease religiosity. Decreasing poverty, fear, instability, and increasing standards of living, improving education and access to education

The 19 9/11 hijackers were about as educated and exposed to western opportunities as it gets.

[CharonY]

And this is why all the other aspects (such as political environment) are also of relevance.

[Phi for All]

Really? So you are going to get a partner when you want to buy a car, or a house, or go to college? This is a huge problem in muslim countries. Your partner concept just make you a surf to your partner.

 

Only a problem for you, because you've made up your mind that it is.

 

In muslim countries, banks will buy the car you want and sell it to you with a profit markup, in installments (like a lease). Same thing as what we do here really, but you aren't technically paying to use money. The bank is making profit instead. Go ahead, think of some reason why this is a yuuuuge problem in muslim countries. In fact, I don't see what the difference would be if I bought a car this way using my bank.

 

The idea that partnering makes you a serf is just ludicrous. You must be a terrible contract writer. Remember that the bank is your partner in the liabilities as well as the return. And unlike a regular partner, it's written in the contract that the business/goods/services are yours once the bank makes their profit.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/oct/29/islamic-finance-sharia-compliant-money-interest

[Strange]

Vaguely related ... some of the best returns on savings currently available (in the UK) are from Islamic banks. Of course, what you get back for your investment is not "interest". But as it is more than you would get in interest elsewhere, who cares.

[DrmDoc]

It seems that criticism isn't the worst of what Muslim-Americans might endure considering the plight of those who voluntarily choose to defend our flag and country. According to this CBS news report, at least 20 marines, including officers and drill sergeants, have been implicated in the abuse of Muslim recruits with at least one incident resulting the death of a young Pakistani-American recruit. This obviously patriotic American-Muslim was, allegedly, verbally and physically abused before, allegedly, taking his own life, which his parents insist he did not do. In another incident, several drill sergeants are accused of calling another young recruit a terrorist and ordering him into a clothes dryer where he received several burns. Apparently some worshipers of Islam do need protection or at least equal treatment in military service to our nation.

Edited September 15, 2016 by DrmDoc

[Ophiolite]

Vaguely related ... some of the best returns on savings currently available (in the UK) are from Islamic banks. Of course, what you get back for your investment is not "interest". But as it is more than you would get in interest elsewhere, who cares.

Interesting.

[Phi for All]

As someone who prefers critical thinking over any kind of conservative/liberal generalization, I think it's more about protecting everything from misunderstanding. I don't mind hearing criticism, but it needs to be informed criticism.

 

Should Islam be protected from ignorance?

[MigL]

OK, so when the question is asked 'What can be done to improve Middle Easter Islamic societies?' you get about two serious answers, and then its right back to West bashing.

Seriously, in five pages we have only Waitforufo, CharonY and Willie71 who think there are some ways that Middle Eastern Islamic societies can be improved and brought into the 21st century ?

 

We must all agree with the OP question, then, because if things were so perfect there, people would be emigrating to the Middle East, not North America.

[Phi for All]

OK, so when the question is asked 'What can be done to improve Middle Easter Islamic societies?' you get about two serious answers, and then its right back to West bashing.

 

That was NOT the question you asked. What do you think needs improvement in those people's societies?