Problems with demons

[Nukeyfox]

As a deist, I tend to hold a sceptical view on some so-called supernatural activities.

I believe that God or any other spiritual diety don't need to intervene with the world.

And that most 'spiritual experiences' can be explained away.

 

However, I have a problem with refuting demons, or more specifically, demonic possessions.

 

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Firstly, because I witnessed it firsthand. I have seen seemingly normal people suddenly go manic and hysterical.

Their voices will change, possess great strength and hallucinate.

Sometimes speak out words of prophesy (but I just think that's just hot reading)

 

It will last for few days or weeks and it's usually followed by an exorcism.

I know that other religions and culture (especially Eastern culture) practise exorcism, but I have only seen Protestant Christian ones. Each one was different -- some simply prayed for a couple of days, others straight out hit and pulled the hair of the possessed.

 

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Secondly, I haven't met any reasonable explanation for them yet.

Here are some common ones:

1) "The person has a dormant mental illness, which suddenly manifested itself for a short time."

I still keep contact with former 'possessions' and they seem completely normal.

I would expect them to relapse or show signs as with most mental illnesses.

Is it the case that the exorcism ritual is sufficient enough to cure them?

 

2) "The person is acting."

I find it unlikely. The 'acting' is too extreme and too prominent.

The person would be risking his or her reputation just for some attention.

And as mentioned, there was some physical abuse with the exorcism and I'm pretty sure the actor wouldn't have liked that.

 

3) "The person believes that he or she is possessed, and is manifesting this belief."

While I do think that people can be quite unpredictable, it's not enough for people to simply believe themselves into taking on a new persona. Despite this, I think this argument is probably the most convincing.

 

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I'm still open to the idea that I may be wrong, and that there might be some interference with the natural world or that one of my couterarguments are unsound.

But what do you think? Is there a possible scientific or philosophical reason for demon manifestations?

Are demons and spirits a reasonable and sound explanation for them?

 

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I'll give you more food for thought though:

I have not seen an exorcism not succeed at the end. Sure it lasts for a few days, but at the very end, the person gets delivered.

 

My mother, however, mentioned a person who was 'oppressed by demons'; she could even cite who it was (a church member).

That person would manifest nearly every night and see apparition. Her view states that demons or spirits oppress the person to the point that they become hysterical.

 

While this view doesn't rule out the existance of demons, it does extend the idea of demon manifestation.

People don't get possessed per se, but rather are persecuted by the 'demon' until they lose it and go mad.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Nukeyfox

[Phi for All]

1) "The person has a dormant mental illness, which suddenly manifested itself for a short time."

I still keep contact with former 'possessions' and they seem completely normal.

I would expect them to relapse or show signs as with most mental illnesses.

Is it the case that the exorcism ritual is sufficient enough to cure them?

 

You don't mention a biological agent, which could support a mundane explanation for the behavior. A virus, or a poisonous substance could trigger abnormal behavior which would eventually vanish without relapse.

Secondly, I haven't met any reasonable explanation for them yet.

 

You need to apply reason so you'll recognize it when you meet it.

[Nukeyfox]

 

You don't mention a biological agent, which could support a mundane explanation for the behavior. A virus, or a poisonous substance could trigger abnormal behavior which would eventually vanish without relapse.

 

Oh, I never really thought about that. That'll be another possible option, which I'll think about.

 

You need to apply reason so you'll recognize it when you meet it.

Apply lavishly or specifically?

[koti]

I have seen seemingly normal people suddenly go manic and hysterical.

Their voices will change, possess great strength and hallucinate.

 

Any perfectly normal woman when you apply a certain combination of words and/or actions to her is capable of the above.

[Phi for All]

Apply lavishly or specifically?

 

Specifically, always. In the instance of exorcisms, you mentioned they always worked in the end, no matter how long it took. Applying reason specifically, we should first consider the null hypothesis, that the exorcism did nothing at all, and whatever was affecting the person went away naturally on its own. This explanation requires nothing supernatural, and also explains why it appeared the exorcism was successful.

[Sensei]

Firstly, because I witnessed it firsthand. I have seen seemingly normal people suddenly go manic and hysterical.

 

Their voices will change, possess great strength and hallucinate.

 

In the age when everybody have built-in video camera in every smartphone,

it's hard to believe that somebody witnessing something weird, would not immediately start recording it..

So, do you have video... ?

[dimreepr]

 

In the age when everybody have built-in video camera in every smartphone,

it's hard to believe that somebody witnessing something weird, would not immediately start recording it..

So, do you have video... ?

 

 

I'm not arguing either way, but that seems to be an extension of anecdotal evidence.

[koti]

Any perfectly normal woman when you apply a certain combination of words and/or actions to her is capable of the above.

 

Sense of humor is not very strong with the one who gave me a thumbs down for this one. Especialy that I think most women would agree with me. Peace Edited September 20, 2016 by koti

[Nukeyfox]

 

In the age when everybody have built-in video camera in every smartphone,

it's hard to believe that somebody witnessing something weird, would not immediately start recording it..

So, do you have video... ?

In churches (or at least the ones I attended), it's considered rude to be 'playing' with your phone while an exorcism is going on.

Nowadays, I don't see much exorcisms happening and I probably won't be invited for one in the future.

 

However, I'm pretty sure there is some video out there on Youtube that can give a view on what's happening.

 

 

Sense of humor is not very strong with the one who gave me a thumbs down for this one. Especialy that I think most women would agree with me. Peace

Hush, you might trigger a femminazi.

[koti]

 

Hush, you might trigger a femminazi.

Hey, that would render my initial post (humorous I stress again) true now wouldn't it. Edited September 20, 2016 by koti

[Memammal]

In churches (or at least the ones I attended), it's considered rude to be 'playing' with your phone while an exorcism is going on.

Nowadays, I don't see much exorcisms happening and I probably won't be invited for one in the future.

Have all the exorcisms that you witnessed took place in a church? The clues to your answer(s) may reside within these two lines above. Furthermore, it seems that you already knew the most likely answer as you indicated in your option 3...the power of illusion, or a skewed reality...aka the power of the brain...aka the power of belief. If you don't open yourself up to believing in the supernatural, things will appear quite normal...as they actually are. If you allow your brain to be fooled by al sorts of suggestions, you will be susceptible to your mind playing tricks on you. That being said, let us not forget that "mind over matter" can be used in a very positive manner as well.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Memammal

[Moontanman]

As soon as I see someone's head turn around in the same direction two or three times I'll get down off my unicorn and look into it...

[koti]

 

I know that other religions and culture (especially Eastern culture) practise exorcism, but I have only seen Protestant Christian ones. Each one was different -- some simply prayed for a couple of days, others straight out hit and pulled the hair of the possessed.

 

 

You do realize that in most civilized countries a citizen is obligated by law to inform the authoroties that a crime has been commited? Unless the person you are mentioning conceded to hitting and hair pulling you witnessed a crime.

Edited September 20, 2016 by koti