Strange Posted October 9, 2016 Posted October 9, 2016 I must be missing something here. If this is 15th century Welsh numerology, why do you give a code relating to the English version of the Roman alphabet, where the Welsh one is considerably different, and includes letters like ch, dd and ll? Because it gives the answers he wants, presumably. Or to put it another way: because numerology.
Tom O'Neil Posted October 9, 2016 Author Posted October 9, 2016 (edited) I must be missing something here. If this is 15th century Welsh numerology, why do you give a code relating to the English version of the Roman alphabet, where the Welsh one is considerably different, and includes letters like ch, dd and ll? The letters are still = to the numbers in Pythagorean numerology and I believe John Dee wrote this. John Dee was an English man with a Welsh background! Which is why it is obviously complete nonsense. You are mapping every word down to one of 9 possibilities. Therefore you can match any word with pretty much any other word (or close synonym). It is impossible to justify any conclusions reached on this basis. Apart from the fact that there is an completely arbitrary relationship between symbols and numbers. You would have to be insane to think this was a rational process for extracting information. How do you explain this? This has never been done before and the rules are to strict to duplicate in any other language. Edited October 10, 2016 by Tom O'Neil
DrKrettin Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 The letters are still = to the numbers in Pythagorean numerology and I believe John Dee wrote this. John Dee was an English man with a Welsh background! How do account for the carbon dating to about a century before John Dee?
Strange Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 How do you explain this? This has never been done before and the rules are to strict to duplicate in any other language. The "rules" are too vague to have any meaning. The "rules" can be (and, sadly, are) applicable to any language. Numerology has been applied to Greek, Russion, Hebrew, Chinese, and prbably every other language and writing system in the world. You As 1/10th of the words will be (randomly) assigned to each of the digits, it is obviously meaningless to say that two words that both map on to 2 have any connection. It would trivial to write a program to prove this is nonsense (I have done it before) but it would be a waste of time. You have clearly convinced yourself that these meaningless patterns mean something. As such, you are beyond rational help. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia My understanding is that the upper table consists of symbols with no known meaning. How do you come to assign and order and therefore numbers to them?
Sensei Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 (edited) Say you have a word like, "Celf" which is magic in welsh. C=3, e=5, l=3,f=6 then add 3+5+3+6=17 then add 1+7=8 3536=8 When you use Pythagorean numerology every output has to be equal to any number from 1 through 9. So by adding up the letters remember this. So if a number that equals 11 that would reduce to 2. Number 15 would = 6 and so on. Make no sense to me. If it's secret code, you should decode it, not truncate it even more, to unusable level. Let's say, you have file on disk, you compress it with ZIP/RAR/7ZIP, from more data you have less data. Suppose so somebody finds this file 10,000 years later. But never heard about ZIP/RAR/7ZIP etc. Do you think summing the all bytes together and getting single digit from it, would allow reading original data? Or you simply destroyed the all data (if there were any).. ? Edited October 10, 2016 by Sensei 2
Tom O'Neil Posted October 11, 2016 Author Posted October 11, 2016 How do account for the carbon dating to about a century before John Dee? How do you know the parchment or vellum was not used a 100 years later? Make no sense to me. If it's secret code, you should decode it, not truncate it even more, to unusable level. Let's say, you have file on disk, you compress it with ZIP/RAR/7ZIP, from more data you have less data. Suppose so somebody finds this file 10,000 years later. But never heard about ZIP/RAR/7ZIP etc. Do you think summing the all bytes together and getting single digit from it, would allow reading original data? Or you simply destroyed the all data (if there were any).. ? If its truncated how did I produce this?
DrKrettin Posted October 12, 2016 Posted October 12, 2016 How do you know the parchment or vellum was not used a 100 years later? Of course, I don't. I suppose it was quite easy for him to find some 100-year-old parchment lying around in large quantities in mint condition. It must have been dead easy to keep it stretched and dry for a century without anybody writing on it. He probably used 100-year-old ink as well, just to be really awkward in case somebody could date that. Yep, I'm convinced. 1
Sensei Posted October 12, 2016 Posted October 12, 2016 (edited) If its truncated how did I produce this? I don't know. You tell me. Let me guess: you made this up (or overinterpreted).. ? How does truncated number 6 refer to Africa, and number 8 refer to Europe.. ? They are index of continent? Well, you should learn more about cryptology and reading ancient books and manuscripts in unknown languages. Edited October 12, 2016 by Sensei 1
imatfaal Posted October 13, 2016 Posted October 13, 2016 How do you know the parchment or vellum was not used a 100 years later? If its truncated how did I produce this? Just running a list of countries of the world through a quick number crunch Algeria Andorra Argentina Austria Bahrain Barbados Bulgaria China Comoros Georgia Jordan North Korea Mali Mauritania Niger Poland Romania Yemen These all yeild 8 as their numerological signifier. Why did you choose Europe? Why not Europa which was the more common spelling till recently and in English?
Tom O'Neil Posted October 13, 2016 Author Posted October 13, 2016 Boke of Jona f79v Just running a list of countries of the world through a quick number crunch Algeria Andorra Argentina Austria Bahrain Barbados Bulgaria China Comoros Georgia Jordan North Korea Mali Mauritania Niger Poland RomaniaYemen These all yeild 8 as their numerological signifier. Why did you choose Europe? Why not Europa which was the more common spelling till recently and in English? T-Maps commonly only use Europe and Africa and Asia on the bottom.
Strange Posted October 13, 2016 Posted October 13, 2016 T-Maps commonly only use Europe and Africa and Asia on the bottom. What is a T-Map? Why are you equating a document that says "EuropA" with something that you claim says "EuropE"? Why are you equating a document that says "AfricA" with something that you claim says "AfricUS"? Could it be that you are desperately searching for anything you can make fit?
Tom O'Neil Posted October 13, 2016 Author Posted October 13, 2016 What is a T-Map? Why are you equating a document that says "EuropA" with something that you claim says "EuropE"? Why are you equating a document that says "AfricA" with something that you claim says "AfricUS"? Could it be that you are desperately searching for anything you can make fit? tripartite map,
Strange Posted October 13, 2016 Posted October 13, 2016 tripartite map, What is a tripartite mate? Why are you equating a document that says "EuropA" with something that you claim says "EuropE"? Why are you equating a document that says "AfricA" with something that you claim says "AfricUS"?
Tom O'Neil Posted October 13, 2016 Author Posted October 13, 2016 What is a tripartite mate? Why are you equating a document that says "EuropA" with something that you claim says "EuropE"? Why are you equating a document that says "AfricA" with something that you claim says "AfricUS"?
Strange Posted October 13, 2016 Posted October 13, 2016 Why are you equating a document that says "EuropA" with something that you claim says "EuropE"? Why are you equating a document that says "AfricA" with something that you claim says "AfricUS"? Why are you ignoring Asia?
Tom O'Neil Posted October 14, 2016 Author Posted October 14, 2016 (edited) Strange, Lets move on you simply have not studied my cipher. Europe is Europa and Africvs is Africa! This is obviously confusing you. No one has ever transcribed a paragraph from the voynich so what to you think of this? Of course, I don't. I suppose it was quite easy for him to find some 100-year-old parchment lying around in large quantities in mint condition. It must have been dead easy to keep it stretched and dry for a century without anybody writing on it. He probably used 100-year-old ink as well, just to be really awkward in case somebody could date that. Yep, I'm convinced. The radiocarbon dating techniques that are used on papyrus can be applied to parchment as well. They do not date the age of the writing but the preparation of the parchment itself.[11] While it is feasibly possible also to radio carbon date certain kinds of ink, it is extremely difficult to do due to the fact that they are generally present on the text only in trace amounts, and it is hard to get a carbon sample of them without the carbon in the parchment contaminating ithttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchment Edited October 14, 2016 by Tom O'Neil
Ophiolite Posted October 14, 2016 Posted October 14, 2016 Tom, it is possible that I have the attention span of a goldfish, the reading comprehension of a lizard, the intellect of a rhododendron and the knowledge base of an igneous intrusion. This would explain why your decoding makes no sense to me. The alternative explanation is that you have yet to lay out in a clear, unambiguous, comprehensive, structured exposition. Naturally, I am biased as to which of these explanations is the correct one. How about you?
Strange Posted October 14, 2016 Posted October 14, 2016 Lets move on you simply have not studied my cipher. That would be because you haven't explained it. Please stop posting illegible and incomprehensible pictures. No one has ever transcribed a paragraph from the voynich Neither have you, so far. so what to you think of this? I think it is a random, illegible, meaningless and incomprehensible picture. Please stop posting these pointless images if you are not going to explain them. You appear to be incapable of explaining what you are doing, and why, and what the result is. Did you never have to write an essay at university? Did you never have to present an argument in a logical and well-structured manner? No one is going to take you seriously unless you EXPLAIN things. If you post another picture without a detailed explanation I will report you to the moderators for deliberately trolling. Please get your act together now. 1
Ophiolite Posted October 14, 2016 Posted October 14, 2016 Well Strange has just repeated what I said, it's just that he did it much better. Tom, as Strange says, get your act together. It is not impossible that you are really onto something, but your posts so far suggest that you are merely on something.
imatfaal Posted October 14, 2016 Posted October 14, 2016 Tom I at least think I know what you are doing. I also think it is nonsense. Each string of characters on the VM you are 1. Identify Character 1 - using your little table (the squiggle version) you find out the Number equivalent. Repeat for each Character in word on VM 2. You now have a string of single digit numbers. Add these together to give your TOTAL 3. Add each digit of the TOTAL to give a NEW TOTAL - continue till you have a single number NB (Numerological Bullshit). 4. Find an English word which if the same procedure using your little table (the Latin character version) is applied has the same NB and decide that it is the translation The problem - which I think everyone here realises apart from you (inter alia see Sensei's great post about zip) is that you are losing vast amounts of information - and replacing it with guesswork. A 6-letter string in VM has a huge amount of information - it is one unique string in a possible group of around 21^6 (about 80million); you are reducing this huge complexity down to 9 possibilities. Very roughly each single digit you come up with (refered to as NB above) would be the answer for around 9 million possible words. You have lost all this information You then take this single digit number and find English words with the same number - estimates put the number of unique and comprehensible words in English at about a million; you represent all of these million with just nine single digits. So each single digit stands in for abour 111,000 words. You have guessed one out of 111,000 So what you are doing is the following - this six letter string is rendered the same as any of 9 million and I will choose a meaning for it from 111,000. === And you have not even been consistent Why Europe with an E at the end and not Europa, why Africa and not Afrikus etc. You are deluding yourself with the method and cheating even with your own self imposed rules 3
Strange Posted October 14, 2016 Posted October 14, 2016 ... Excellent summary of the problems. You are deluding yourself with the method and cheating even with your own self imposed rules In other words: it's numerology.
imatfaal Posted October 14, 2016 Posted October 14, 2016 In other words: it's numerology. Exactly! I love numerology because I cannot get my head around the idea that anyone could think (after a moment's contemplation) that it has any basis in reality and because it is so easily spoofed. It also follows that one of my absolute favourite reads is Foucault's Pendulum - and, of course, within that the Comte de St Germain. Funnily enough the immortal Comte was also one of the alleged creators of ... you've guessed it ... the Voynich Manuscript
Tom O'Neil Posted October 15, 2016 Author Posted October 15, 2016 Tom I at least think I know what you are doing. I also think it is nonsense. Each string of characters on the VM you are 1. Identify Character 1 - using your little table (the squiggle version) you find out the Number equivalent. Repeat for each Character in word on VM 2. You now have a string of single digit numbers. Add these together to give your TOTAL 3. Add each digit of the TOTAL to give a NEW TOTAL - continue till you have a single number NB (Numerological Bullshit). 4. Find an English word which if the same procedure using your little table (the Latin character version) is applied has the same NB and decide that it is the translation The problem - which I think everyone here realises apart from you (inter alia see Sensei's great post about zip) is that you are losing vast amounts of information - and replacing it with guesswork. A 6-letter string in VM has a huge amount of information - it is one unique string in a possible group of around 21^6 (about 80million); you are reducing this huge complexity down to 9 possibilities. Very roughly each single digit you come up with (refered to as NB above) would be the answer for around 9 million possible words. You have lost all this information You then take this single digit number and find English words with the same number - estimates put the number of unique and comprehensible words in English at about a million; you represent all of these million with just nine single digits. So each single digit stands in for abour 111,000 words. You have guessed one out of 111,000 So what you are doing is the following - this six letter string is rendered the same as any of 9 million and I will choose a meaning for it from 111,000. === And you have not even been consistent Why Europe with an E at the end and not Europa, why Africa and not Afrikus etc. You are deluding yourself with the method and cheating even with your own self imposed rules Within this decoded paragraph are direct quotes and words from the Book of Jonah. The sentence structure follows my cipher to the letter and correlates to the Pythagorean numerology from the books of Jonah from the 16th century. Also in folio 79v from the voynich manuscript there is imagery of a cross and a fysh swallowing a male figure. The penis is evident here. Forming sentences with a cipher for the voynich has never occurred until now. The odds of doing this have been misrepresented by you, because my cipher is strong and the logic of sentence structure in this paragraph are evident. http://www.bibles-online.net/ -1
Strange Posted October 15, 2016 Posted October 15, 2016 Within this decoded paragraph are direct quotes and words from the Book of Jonah. There might be. There might also be the secret of eternal life. But as it is totally illegible, we will never know. The sentence structure follows my cipher Then perhaps you could explain how you cipher works, what you did to develop it, what results it produces, and so on. Preferably WITHOUT another stupid picture that shows nothing useful. and correlates to the Pythagorean numerology Which, by definition, is nonsense. Forming sentences with a cipher for the voynich has never occurred until now. And you have yet to (a) show a sentence that you have created; (b) explain the method by which you created it. The odds of doing this have been misrepresented by you, because my cipher is strong As your "cipher" is based on numerology, it is obviously nonsense for the reasons that imatfaal so clearly explained. Just saying "the odds are misrepresented" is not a valid argument. Please show, in mathematical detail (and without posting another picture) what the odds should be and why your cipher is strong.
Ophiolite Posted October 17, 2016 Posted October 17, 2016 Tom, you have now been asked by several members to take us step by step through your method. You have avoided doing so, apparently in the belief that the steps of your method are self evident. They are not. I ask you please to produce a post that does exactly that. If you choose not to do so, but instead post more of the same I shall request that this thread be locked permanently. Please avoid this by posting what you have been repeatedly asked for. Thank you.
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