I have a very specific question about Cro magnons/ something I can't figure out about Cro magnon skull morphology

[EvanF]

Cro magnons are something the 'science' world doesn't talk about very much for some reason. But we talk about neanderthals and and early hominids all day long. Apart from the strange fact that 'Cro magnons' had significantly larger brains that we do...I've noticed something that I've never had an answer for that maybe someone here can answer...

 

*WHY is there a perfect circular indention on the forehead of almost every 'Cro magnon' skull that has been found?? I can't seem to find a logical explanation.

 

Here are two examples...

 

 

Here's another example.

And a view from the side.

[CharonY]

Why do you think that there is not much research on them? You are aware that they are not really a distinct taxon? Also, what you have seen are various reproductions of Cro-Magnon 1.

[EvanF]

Why do you think that there is not much research on them? You are aware that they are not really a distinct taxon? Also, what you have seen are various reproductions of Cro-Magnon 1.

I never said that there is not much research on them, (even if that might be the case.) Cro magnons certainly were a distinct group of Homo sapiens. They are considered anatomically 'modern humans' but they were still quite different from us in a few ways, but they are not seen by most scientists as a separate sub species. I wasn't aware that all of the skulls were simply reproductions? If that was true then it would make sense why they all have that same indention on the forehead, it just leaves the question of why it was on the original skull/what caused it. But I'm pretty sure they have found more than just ONE archaic Cro magnon skull...but that brings me back to my original point... if I try to type in a list of all Cro magnon skulls I get little to no science pages on it? But I can get all kinds of science pages listing neanderthal fossils, etc...

Edited September 26, 2016 by EvanF

[CharonY]

I never said that there is not much research on them,

 

 

Cro magnons are something the 'science' world doesn't talk about very much for some reason. B

 

 

Cro-Magnon is at best an informal term and they would be indistinguishable from modern humans, as you pointed out. There have been more findings of humans from that period, though from what I understand Cro-Magnon 1 is one of the best preserved ones. Therefore it is often used as the original to do make replicas of. Others do not show that indentation, but are often in bad shape or are only fragments.

[EvanF]

Well, they are a bit different from literal modern humans in that they have a larger brain size and were physically stronger, and their skulls are bit different looking. But I appreciate you answering my question in part, because I just ASSUMED that we had discovered more than just ONE well preserved archaic 'modern human' skull from Europe...

[Ophiolite]

You may find the linked paper of interest.

 

Balzeau, A. et al "First description of the Cro-Magnon 1 endocast and study of brain variation and evolution in anatomically modern Homo sapiens" Bull. Mém. Soc. Anthropol. Paris (2013) 25:1-18

 

Their conclusions:

Developments in brain mapping and computational anatomy in the last twenty years have expanded possibilities for analysing brain structure and function. Here we have opened up a new perspective on knowledge of the anatomy of the H. sapiens brain, whose recent evolution had never before been investigated in the light of this feature, which is clearly an important gap in scientific knowledge. A decrease in absolute endocranial size has occurred between fossil specimens and recent populations in H. sapiens. This variation is also associated with noticeable non-allometric variations in the relative size and shape of the different areas of the brain of fossil and extant AMH, which may be described and summarised as follows. The overall shape of the endocasts does not exhibit noticeable changes in width, but it does show substantial vertical and anteroposterior variations. The frontal lobes have become relatively shorter anteroposteriorly and their surface has decreased. Parietal lobes are longer while the surface of the parietotemporal lobes has not changed. Occipital lobes have become shorter vertically and their surface has decreased. This is related to an anteroposterior “compression” of the endocast and to a vertical “compression”of its upper part where its width does not differ between fossil and extant AMH. As of now, these morphological variations of the brain during the recent evolution of our species are impossible to correlate with functional data or interpretations of variations in human capacities that have certainly not varied so widely overtime. This illustrates the complex correlation between form and function and highlights the considerable plasticity of the H. sapiens brain.

 

Incidentally, a search for "Cro Magnon" on Google Scholar returns over 14,000 hits, including over 3,000 from the last five years. That suggests that the science world is doing quite a lot of talking about them.

[EvanF]

You may find the linked paper of interest.

 

Balzeau, A. et al "First description of the Cro-Magnon 1 endocast and study of brain variation and evolution in anatomically modern Homo sapiens" Bull. Mém. Soc. Anthropol. Paris (2013) 25:1-18

 

 

Incidentally, a search for "Cro Magnon" on Google Scholar returns over 14,000 hits, including over 3,000 from the last five years. That suggests that the science world is doing quite a lot of talking about them.

Yes, it would be impossible for scientists and scholars not to mention Cro magnons here and there.

[michel123456]

Are you sure that all the photos you have provided are not pictures of the same skull?

[Strange]

Are you sure that all the photos you have provided are not pictures of the same skull?

 

 

I think it is pretty obvious they are.

[Delta1212]

 

 

I think it is pretty obvious they are.

Yeah, they're all identical right down to the little bumps and divots that make up the texture of the skull.

[CharonY]

They are either the same or replicates from the cro-magon 1 skull. They are exhibited in several museums AFAIK, but you can actually also buy them.

[DrP]

How many CM skulls have been found? How many have the round circle? May have been an execution practice? Especially if they were found in same place.

[CharonY]

Technically there are quite a few that fall into the rough time frame, but would still be thousands of years apart. But at the same site were Cro-magnon 1 was found, additional specimen were found. However, from what I remember 1 had a fungal infection. I am not sure whether there has been new findings but I also vaguely remember that people were still speculating whether they had a concept of ritual (i.e. whether it was a burial site).

Edited October 5, 2016 by CharonY

[EvanF]

I've figured out that these are all Cro magnon 1 copy skulls. We have only found 1 well preserved Cro magnon skull...(that is something I simply did not expect.)

 

However that leaves the question what exactly caused this circular indention on the skull? It is very likely not an injury, as even if someone took a perfectly round stone against someone's skull it would leave cracks, not a smooth symmetrical indention...

 

 

 

Anyways, my more interesting thread about Cro magnons being the first true modern humans with 1,000+views in a few days, was moved to the "speculations" thread.

Edited October 5, 2016 by EvanF

[Strange]

Could it be a result of (attempted) trepanning? I know that was done remarkably early - but I don't know if it was that early.

[EvanF]

Could it be a result of (attempted) trepanning? I know that was done remarkably early - but I don't know if it was that early.

That's exactly what I mean though...it looks like it was done by some kind of device like that, which of course seems very unlikely they had some kind of metal drilling device 30,000+ years ago...

 

It doesn't seem like it would be possible to do that with stone tools, but I could be wrong.

[CharonY]

There are more than one skull but AFAIK most are in worse shape (i.e. fragmented with missing pieces). As such, 1 has been designated as type species.

And no, I am pretty sure if those were not artificially made and certainly not from a medical procedure (that would have been a sensation). Fungal infection still seems the likeliest cause (though I am by no means qualified to assess it).

Edited October 5, 2016 by CharonY

[EvanF]

There are more than one skull but AFAIK most are in worse shape (i.e. fragmented with missing pieces). As such, 1 has been designated as type species.

And no, I am pretty sure if those were not artificially made and certainly not from a medical procedure (that would have been a sensation). Fungal infection still seems the likeliest cause (though I am by no means qualified to assess it).

Fungal infection was the first thing that I was thinking...However it's somewhat unlikely that a fungal infection would pit out a skull in such a symmetrical manner.

Technically there are quite a few that fall into the rough time frame, but would still be thousands of years apart. But at the same site were Cro-magnon 1 was found, additional specimen were found. However, from what I remember 1 had a fungal infection. I am not sure whether there has been new findings but I also vaguely remember that people were still speculating whether they had a concept of ritual (i.e. whether it was a burial site).

Cro magnons were the first humans in the archeological record to reach 'behavioral modernity', which means they had cognitive abilities and complex culture of a modern human. It certainly could be some kind of death ritual, as it's theorized by archeological evidence that Cro magnons had a type of 'religion.' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_religion

[CharonY]

Radial spread is not unusual in infections. However, there is a big likelihood that some sort of trauma allowed the infection to settle in in the first place. Whatever it may have been, it seems not to be mostly superficial. The other specimen found at the same site have been reported to have other serious damages, such a fractured skull, which they apparently survived for a while.