What are good, scientific sources about human vaccines ?

[DrP]

Not according to that information release from the NHS. "...,your child won't pass anything on to non-vaccinated children."

[koti]

Not according to that information release from the NHS. "...,your child won't pass anything on to non-vaccinated children."

That piece of information deals with a child developing a mild case of measles after vaccination and not contracting it to a non vaccinated child. Theres also zero scientific data in that information. I'm looking for scientific data on the actual strains of viruses in the MMR II vaccine which are live. I presume they are not virural enough (not sure if this is the word) are probably genetically modified etc. but it would be nice to have some actual data on those strains present in that vaccine and I cant find any.

Edited April 12, 2017 by koti

[DrP]

Is it not the same thing? Your child has it injected into them. They get a mild form which can't be passed on. How else are they supposed to pass it on? Are they suggesting it leaches out of him or something? I'd tell them take a hike and get with reality and stop behaving so backwards in their thinking. If they don't like - don't come over. Try ridicule maybe? Why should you have to jump through hoops because they choose the more dangerous path for their kids based on their ignorance of accepted published facts.

 

I thought it was going to be illegal to opt out of vaccines soon anyway.... maybe I misread that somewhere a few months back.

[koti]

Is it not the same thing? Your child has it injected into them. They get a mild form which can't be passed on. How else are they supposed to pass it on? Are they suggesting it leaches out of him or something? I'd tell them take a hike and get with reality and stop behaving so backwards in their thinking. If they don't like - don't come over. Try ridicule maybe? Why should you have to jump through hoops because they choose the more dangerous path for their kids based on their ignorance of accepted published facts.

 

I thought it was going to be illegal to opt out of vaccines soon anyway.... maybe I misread that somewhere a few months back.

 

Logically it is more or less the same thing but I'm looking for info on the actual virus strains in that vaccine to be able to rationally explain this to them. I can't just tell them to take a hike, it's not that simple, its close family. I'd rather give them scientific knowledge that would contribute to them changing their mind and not be afraid of us for 2 months after we vaccinate our kid. Believe me, I'm already more than enough pissed at this so further antagonizing in combination with my "short wick" mentality will render a family nuclear holocaust and we don't want this, especially them.

 

It is illegal here but its kind of a grey area and these hipster morons don't care...some of them even opt for children not being let into schools after vaccinations so the don't contract the disease that they were vaccinated for onto un-vaccinated children.

Edited April 12, 2017 by koti

[Fuzzwood]

Perhaps they should simply let their children be vaccinated if they are already scared of them contracting diseases from a debilitated virus.

[koti]

Perhaps they should simply let their children be vaccinated if they are already scared of them contracting diseases from a debilitated virus.

 

 

Right?! Man I'm telling ya I'm close to a meltdown with them.

Any actual data on the debilitated viruses in the MMR II vaccine ?

[Argent]

 

 

Thanks for you answer String. Let me rephrase my question though as this is the main concern of my anti vaxer family members:

Can the live strains of viruses present in the MMR II vaccine lead to a non vaccinated child contracting measles, mumps or rubella ?

 

The thing is that they say they are afraid of having contact with us for 2 months after we vaccinate our kid with MMR II vaccine because it consists of live virus strains.

Ofcourse they are not afraid of sending their unvaccinated 4 year old to kindergarden and come back home to their unvaccinated 6 month old.

Their behavior in this case is so incredibly dumb that frankly, I'm near a nervous breakdown especially that we will be forced to spend time together during upcoming family functions and a 2 week vacation in July.

 

 

 

Right?! Man I'm telling ya I'm close to a meltdown with them.

Any actual data on the debilitated viruses in the MMR II vaccine ?

This is obviously causing you a great deal of stress. I think you have to put the ball in their court.

 

"Guys. I believe vaccinations are not only beneficial, but essential for the health of my children. I appreciate and respect that you have a different view. However, the consequences of that are your problem. They are not mine. You have to decide whether or not you let your children mix with mine over the next couple of months or not. I hope you will decide for, not against, but it is entirely your decision. Now, I have no wish to discuss this further. Just let me know when and what you have decided".

[koti]

 

This is obviously causing you a great deal of stress. I think you have to put the ball in their court.

 

"Guys. I believe vaccinations are not only beneficial, but essential for the health of my children. I appreciate and respect that you have a different view. However, the consequences of that are your problem. They are not mine. You have to decide whether or not you let your children mix with mine over the next couple of months or not. I hope you will decide for, not against, but it is entirely your decision. Now, I have no wish to discuss this further. Just let me know when and what you have decided".

The ball is in their ball park already. Their decision is also made up as well, no need for me to give them a speech - we hardly socialize anymore. I'm also pretty good at coming up with my own speeches (I agree with yours though), Im here to find scientific data on the live virus strains in the MMR II vaccine and how they can or cannot contribute to contracting measles, mumps and rubella. Edited April 12, 2017 by koti

[Argent]

The ball is in

Good luck. Let us know how it all turns out.

[DrP]

Well, no-one yet has had it passed on - I think it would have been reported. The lack of cases of it ever happening before might suggest it just doesn't happen at all.

[koti]

Well, no-one yet has had it passed on - I think it would have been reported. The lack of cases of it ever happening before might suggest it just doesn't happen at all.

There are multiple "reports" from anti vaxxer "sources" of dozens of kids contracting diseases from live vaccines. This is the problem...You get multiple crackpot sources of information all over and thats how the anti vaxxers become brainwashed (including my family members) For obvious reasons Im not going to link to these sources here.

So maybe its a better idea to counter that with science instead of speeches like Argent suggests.

Edited April 12, 2017 by koti

[StringJunky]

Here's a WHO release for health workers:

 

General

 

Adequate treatment provisions including epinephrine injection (1:1000), should be available for

immediate use should an anaphylactic or anaphylactoid reaction occur.

 

Administration of immune globulins concurrently with M-M-R II may interfere with the expected

immune response. Vaccination should be deferred for 3 months or longer following blood or plasma

transfusions, or administration of immune globulin (human).

 

Excretion of small amounts of the live attenuated rubella virus from the nose or throat has occurred in

the majority of susceptible individuals 7 to 28 days after vaccination. There is no confirmed evidence to

indicate that such virus is transmitted to susceptible persons who are in contact with the vaccinated

individuals. Consequently, transmission through close personal contact, while accepted as a theoretical

possibility, is not regarded as a significant risk. However, transmission of the rubella vaccine virus to

infants via breast milk has been documented (see Nursing Mothers).

 

There are no reports of transmission of live attenuated measles or mumps viruses from vaccinees to

susceptible contacts.

http://www.who.int/immunization_standards/vaccine_quality/PQ_168_MMR_MSD_PI_July2008.pdf

Edited April 12, 2017 by StringJunky

[koti]

Here's a WHO release for health workers:

 

 

This is informative, thank you Sir.

Edited April 12, 2017 by koti

[StringJunky]

This is informative, thank you Sir.

No problem. Science is an oasis in a sea of bullshit.

[koti]

Okay, our family summer holiday is officialy ruined do to an anti vaccine moron in our family (my brother's wife) We vaccinated our son with the MMR vaccine 2 months ago (he's 15 months now) and she's still afraid that her 2 unvaccinated children (10 months and 4 years) will get mups, measles or rubella from our vaccinated kid due to the live MMR vaccine he got - Priorix. 

Might as well deepen my knowledge on this as it will be soothing to me. I'd very much like to know the mechanisms of a live vaccine, specifically MMR how the viruses are attenuated, how the virulity is controlled and how exactly the proteins are involved? 

 

[beecee]

Just for the record, here in Australia, any person who for any reason ignores or rejects vaccinations, for pre schoolers, are refused entry into schools and kindergartens and any welfare payments are ceased. 

http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/no-childcare-or-kindergarten-unvaccinated-australian-kids/

Edited August 10, 2017 by beecee

[koti]

Vaccination is obligatory here in Poland, they get fined big and it still doesn't stop them from the madness. 

8 minutes ago, beecee said:

Just for the record, here in Australia, any person who for any reason ignores or rejects vaccinations, for pre schoolers, are refused entry into schools and kindergartens and any welfare payments are ceased. 

http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/no-childcare-or-kindergarten-unvaccinated-australian-kids/

Vaccination is obligatory here in Poland, they get fined big and it still doesn't stop them from the madness. 

[beecee]

5 minutes ago, koti said:

Vaccination is obligatory here in Poland, they get fined big and it still doesn't stop them from the madness. 

Vaccination is obligatory here in Poland, they get fined big and it still doesn't stop them from the madness. 

If my memory serves me correctly, the vaccination rates in Australia are around 96%. While hitting the anti vaxxer nuts in the hip pocket is effective, making sure that unvaccinated children are exempted from large gatherings of other children at that age, appears logical to me. As you say, even fining them does not work 100%. It seems no action short of removing the toddlers from their parental care would be 100% effective. I'm not actually suggesting that should be done, [and I'm not saying it shouldn't be done under some circumstances] but if say former rife childhood diseases such as Polio should make a comeback, would it then be justified?

[beecee]

Perhaps forced re-education of the parents in extreme cases may be justified...eg: Showing them film/video of children in the forties and early fifties in Iron lungs suffering from that terrible childhood disease Polio. I remember when the Polio Salk vaccine was discovered in the early fifties...Every child from every school in Australia were given the course of the Salk vaccines, free of charge. It worked. Polio was virtually eliminated. Or show them video of the pain and suffering a child goes through with whooping cough, or the loss of a child that has caught Menningacoccal disease. The more I think about it, the more I'm in favour of taking that last drastic step in removing the child from its parents care in the more extreme cases. 

[StringJunky]

I would tell her "Congratulations on helping to keep these scourges in circulation and I hope you are gratified if one of your children infects and damages a child that can't be vaccinated because of too low immunity". It's harsh but that's reality. It is one the very few communal responsibilities where it is important we all do our bit.

[CharonY]

2 hours ago, koti said:

Okay, our family summer holiday is officialy ruined do to an anti vaccine moron in our family (my brother's wife) We vaccinated our son with the MMR vaccine 2 months ago (he's 15 months now) and she's still afraid that her 2 unvaccinated children (10 months and 4 years) will get mups, measles or rubella from our vaccinated kid due to the live MMR vaccine he got - Priorix. 

Might as well deepen my knowledge on this as it will be soothing to me. I'd very much like to know the mechanisms of a live vaccine, specifically MMR how the viruses are attenuated, how the virulity is controlled and how exactly the proteins are involved? 

 

Attenuated strains are simply viruses that have very low virulence in the target organism. They are produced by either by selection or, in some cases, targeted mutagenesis. They are typically propagated in vitro and quality control is quite complex and includes testing of the cultures (to ensure that they are still pure and only contain the virus), animal testing using susceptible models and so on.

The theoretical risk is that somehow, attenuated strains may acquire further mutations that turn them virulent again. The only example I can think of where it actually has happened are the case of polio vaccines with something in the order of 20ish outbreaks in a decade throughout the world (interestingly, typically in regions where vaccination was inadequate). However, in order to allow transmission, the vaccinated individual would first have to become sick. But again, these are incredibly rare incidences, far outweighed by the risk of actual chance infection, especially in populations with low vaccination rates.

Edited August 10, 2017 by CharonY

[koti]

25 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Attenuated strains are simply viruses that have very low virulence in the target organism. They are produced by either by selection or, in some cases, targeted mutagenesis. They are typically propagated in vitro and quality control is quite complex and includes testing of the cultures (to ensure that they are still pure and only contain the virus), animal testing using susceptible models and so on.

The theoretical risk is that somehow, attenuated strains may acquire further mutations that turn them virulent again. The only example I can think of where it actually has happened are the case of polio vaccines with something in the order of 20ish outbreaks in a decade throughout the world (interestingly, typically in regions where vaccination was inadequate). However, in order to allow transmission, the vaccinated individual would first have to become sick. But again, these are incredibly rare incidences, far outweighed by the risk of actual chance infection, especially in populations with low vaccination rates.

What you wrote enables me to know what to look for further, thanks CharonY.

As for what beecee and Stringy wrote above about how to cope with the antivaxers, I don't know about taking the children from their parents but the forced educations sounds really good. As for me, after yet another 3 hours of trying to unsuccessfully pour oil into her dumb, little mind which ended up with her bursting into swearing at me, telling me that I'm an idiot because "Cancer" and again that her friend has a "child who experienced a development regress caused by the MMR vaccine" I lost it and informed her politely that if one of her children ends up in the hospital due to a vaccine preventable disease I shall personally see to her being prosecuted in court. She petrified and genuinely got scared... it's not going to help her poor children but at least I got some satisfaction. Dumb hipster.

[koti]

On 4/12/2017 at 6:46 AM, Argent said:

Good luck. Let us know how it all turns out.

It has been over 6 months since my last meltdown concerning my brother and his brainless wife not vaccinating their children which resulted in various family issues...especially them having fear of their children contracting diseases from our vaccinated child resulting in a ruined family holiday. Here's an update, listen to this...
The posh, private kindergarden which the 4 year old kid of my Brother and his (moronic) wife attends, reported that there was a case of whooping cough among the children attending...both my brother's kids are unvaccinated and there are more unvaccinated kids in that kindergarden. It's a middle class kids place, high tuition, extensive teaching programs etc,  why these young hipster parents are so cardinally stupid believing the big pharma conspiracy theories and other crap is beyond me. So my brother and his wife started to panic and took their 4 year old (they have an 18 month old too)  to the hospital for extensive tests to check if he's fine. Their reaction to my parents (There is virtually zero relation between "us" & "them" now) was that the whooping cough vaccine works only for 2 years so they still think they did the right thing by not vaccinating their kids. I'm thinking...if their kid gets the whooping cough bacteria, will they still think they did "the right thing" My bet is that is exactly what would happen...even if the kid would die they would still keep to their ignorance and stupidity. Its a nightmare

 

Edited February 18, 2018 by Phi for All
edit by mod: changed virus to bacteria by request

[CharonY]

I am afraid, the situation is only going to get worse from here. In the very near future most antibiotics used to treat primary or secondary infection will be ineffectual. Which means that outbreaks have the potential to be much more deadly than they are now. It is especially frustrating that ca.  30 years back we thought that with vaccinations and antibiotics we are on the brink of eradicating infectious diseases.

Now by being stupid with vaccines and overuse of antibiotics (like, tonnes to fatten up livestock instead restricting it to treatments) we are throwing much out of the window for no good reason at all.

[Bender]

You have my sympathy. There is little that gets me as upset as such idiocy. 

They won't be persuaded because they couldn't live with themselves for taking such risks with there children.

They will find reasons to dismiss any argument, however convincing, because emotionally they cannot afford being wrong.

It is hard, if not impossible, to battle such delusions once the stakes are too high.