What are good, scientific sources about human vaccines ?

[koti]

9 hours ago, CharonY said:

I am afraid, the situation is only going to get worse from here. In the very near future most antibiotics used to treat primary or secondary infection will be ineffectual. Which means that outbreaks have the potential to be much more deadly than they are now. It is especially frustrating that ca.  30 years back we thought that with vaccinations and antibiotics we are on the brink of eradicating infectious diseases.

Now by being stupid with vaccines and overuse of antibiotics (like, tonnes to fatten up livestock instead restricting it to treatments) we are throwing much out of the window for no good reason at all.

Oh thats just great. I wasn’t aware that the livestock antibiotic use has an effect of immunizing bacteria from antibiotics used in humans, thats just a wonderful addition to the vaccine stupidity.

5 hours ago, Bender said:

You have my sympathy. There is little that gets me as upset as such idiocy. 

They won't be persuaded because they couldn't live with themselves for taking such risks with there children.

They will find reasons to dismiss any argument, however convincing, because emotionally they cannot afford being wrong.

It is hard, if not impossible, to battle such delusions once the stakes are too high.  

That sums it up perfectly.

[CharonY]

15 hours ago, koti said:

Oh thats just great. I wasn’t aware that the livestock antibiotic use has an effect of immunizing bacteria from antibiotics used in humans, thats just a wonderful addition to the vaccine stupidity.

It does not immunize them (which would probably be less of a problem) rather it selects for (multi-)resistant strains. In fact, there are grounds to believe that agriculture may have a larger impact in the long run than personal use (though it is not perfectly established). Antibiotics are used in far higher quantity in agriculture and get into contact with bacteria in very different habitats (e.g. via manure) but which can end up in the human food chain. Certain resistances can be transferred between bacteria, with the result that we are all kind of screwed. 

But on the bright side, measles outbreak in Europe have increased by 400% this year with about a dozen reported deaths. Much of it is due to the anti-vaccination movements in Romania, Italy and Ukraine (but also Greece, and Germany). Now, measles, is/was on the brink of eradication and this stupid counter-movement is very much trying to bring it back. The good news is that politics decided to start leveraging fines and in Romania kids may not attend school if they are not vaccinated.  But I am sure in the age of the internet we will soon have proud parents ready martyr themselves (or rather their children) the the anti-vax movement.

Well, enough ranting, anyway.

[koti]

17 hours ago, CharonY said:

It does not immunize them (which would probably be less of a problem) rather it selects for (multi-)resistant strains. In fact, there are grounds to believe that agriculture may have a larger impact in the long run than personal use (though it is not perfectly established). Antibiotics are used in far higher quantity in agriculture and get into contact with bacteria in very different habitats (e.g. via manure) but which can end up in the human food chain. Certain resistances can be transferred between bacteria, with the result that we are all kind of screwed. 

But on the bright side, measles outbreak in Europe have increased by 400% this year with about a dozen reported deaths. Much of it is due to the anti-vaccination movements in Romania, Italy and Ukraine (but also Greece, and Germany). Now, measles, is/was on the brink of eradication and this stupid counter-movement is very much trying to bring it back. The good news is that politics decided to start leveraging fines and in Romania kids may not attend school if they are not vaccinated.  But I am sure in the age of the internet we will soon have proud parents ready martyr themselves (or rather their children) the the anti-vax movement.

Well, enough ranting, anyway.

Nimenrix + Bexsero for our 22 month old for meningococcal, flu shots for wifey and whiskey for me and hope for the best.

[StringJunky]

11 hours ago, koti said:

Nimenrix + Bexsero for our 22 month old for meningococcal, flu shots for wifey and whiskey for me and hope for the best.

I was thinking about all the vaccine shots one typically has throughout ones life; its quite a few. I've fairly recently had a pneumonia shot and flu shot and it won't end there. I think, ultimately, vaccines are the price we have to pay for living in such large groups.

[koti]

1 hour ago, StringJunky said:

I was thinking about all the vaccine shots one typically has throughout ones life; its quite a few. I've fairly recently had a pneumonia shot and flu shot and it won't end there. I think, ultimately, vaccines are the price we have to pay for living in such large groups.

We watched an episode of a documentary called „The wonder list with Bill Weir” on Iceland last night... they have trolls and elves for religion, people rarely get married, women are ruling the country, no guns, very rare suicides. They refuse to sell out their thermal energy for profit, they have very strong laws and beliefs concerning preservation of nature plus their landscape is like rendered from a fantasy computer game - they’re healthy and happy. They didn’t mention anything about diseases and vaccines but I presume its not an issue there. If it was a bit warmer there I wouldn’t hesitate to move.

[CharonY]

Actually the average vaccination rate is slightly below the regional average. But there are fewer people around and I assume that in the urban center it is on the higher end (considering that the whole country is less populated than many cities elsewhere). 

[koti]

A little update on whats happening in my own back yard:

1. The antivax movements have gathered 100K signatures and set up their project awaiting legislation to "let people choose" whether to vaccinate or not and loosen the law which states that vaccines are obligatory. Fortunately after the second (!) reading the project was rejected yesterday, it seems that our populist/right government managed not to f this up and they listened to the medical experts instead of the altmed psychos.

2. The rate of people who refused to vaccinate their children went from about 3.500 in 2012 to about 34.000 in 2018. We didn't have to wait long for the consequences, in the last week alone there have been several cases of Measles in Warsaw surrounding towns. A family of 6 all unvaccinated in a town of "Pruszków" is being investigated whether they really had medical evidence that prevented the vaccine. Other cases in other towns, 18 overall as of yesterday.

3. A 14 month old girl had a pneumococcal disease earlier this week in Poznań, she was not vaccinated. The parents insisted on 200mg of sodium ascorbate delivered by a drip, this was just before the child died. Our local antivax guru stated afterwards that the doctors are "worthless animals" because they in fact should deliver a Vitamin C drip of at least 10gr instead of 200mg.

4. The antivax movement line of defence - They insist that the Measles epidemic is a marketing stunt created by pharmaceutical companies to get rid of vaccines which soon get expired.

5. The medical community is loosing their nerve, MD's are starting to sue the antivax guru's, the antivax gurus are sueing the doctors and the game is on.

[koti]

Good news today. The very popular charlatan "Jerzy Zięba" who brainwashed people for years into buying his products - Vitamin C for 1800% market price, beetroot juice for 20 bucks a vile and similar ridiculousness, got raided this morning by the attorney general, they confiscated most of his stuff and a law suit by the state is launched against him. For the last few years he manaegd to convince multiple people into not taking chemo therapy, instead using his vitamin C injections. He notoriously bashes anyone who actually has a degree and/or knowledge and he was very good at it, he made millions off his internet store and multiple regular stores. He is a mechanical engineer posing as a high-end natural doctor, untill today. Hopefuly the law suit will end up in him loosing every last penny.

[CharonY]

19 hours ago, koti said:

Good news today. The very popular charlatan "Jerzy Zięba" who brainwashed people for years into buying his products - Vitamin C for 1800% market price, beetroot juice for 20 bucks a vile and similar ridiculousness, got raided this morning by the attorney general, they confiscated most of his stuff and a law suit by the state is launched against him. For the last few years he manaegd to convince multiple people into not taking chemo therapy, instead using his vitamin C injections. He notoriously bashes anyone who actually has a degree and/or knowledge and he was very good at it, he made millions off his internet store and multiple regular stores. He is a mechanical engineer posing as a high-end natural doctor, untill today. Hopefuly the law suit will end up in him loosing every last penny.

To put a bit of a downer on the good news, measles are making a resurgence. In the US it is hitting highs after being declared eradicated and in Europe infections are hitting record highs (82,000 in 2018) after being on the path of eliminating it. The coverage is below 95%. The silver lining is that the resurgence has sparked increase in vaccination rates, hopefully folks won't forget that easily next time...

[Intrigued]

On 2/21/2018 at 9:16 AM, StringJunky said:

I think, ultimately, vaccines are the price we have to pay for living in such large groups.

Certainly. Much better than the alternative of dying in large groups!

[StringJunky]

31 minutes ago, Intrigued said:

Certainly. Much better than the alternative of dying in large groups!

Yep.

[koti]

2 hours ago, CharonY said:

To put a bit of a downer on the good news, measles are making a resurgence. In the US it is hitting highs after being declared eradicated and in Europe infections are hitting record highs (82,000 in 2018) after being on the path of eliminating it. The coverage is below 95%. The silver lining is that the resurgence has sparked increase in vaccination rates, hopefully folks won't forget that easily next time...

I’m not sure if we aren’t in for a second, larger wave of antivaxers. The amount of support the above mentioned guy got after they raided his business yesterday is incredible. It looks like he is on his way to becoming a martyr for the movement. They made laws stricter in Italy a few weeks back including not letting unvaccinated chikdren into the education system, in Poland they’re considering the same, for now it ended up with vaccinated kids getting points when apolying to get into kindergardens. The lady in charge of the Polish anti vax movement is already making serious passes at pollitics, shes already on the inside of our parliament lobbying and shes getting support, Im sure they will all join forces and eventually become a pollitical party. 

[CharonY]

26 minutes ago, koti said:

I’m not sure if we aren’t in for a second, larger wave of antivaxers. The amount of support the above mentioned guy got after they raided his business yesterday is incredible. It looks like he is on his way to becoming a martyr for the movement. They made laws stricter in Italy a few weeks back including not letting unvaccinated chikdren into the education system, in Poland they’re considering the same, for now it ended up with vaccinated kids getting points when apolying to get into kindergardens. The lady in charge of the Polish anti vax movement is already making serious passes at pollitics, shes already on the inside of our parliament lobbying and shes getting support, Im sure they will all join forces and eventually become a pollitical party. 

Who knew that social media would bring back epidemics... My suspicion is that with increasing infections and deaths there will be a backlash of sorts at some point. It is easy to argue against vaccines while they protect you. Much more difficult when increasing folks specifically in those groups start dying. If only they would not endanger others with their mindset.

[koti]

15 minutes ago, CharonY said:

Who knew that social media would bring back epidemics... My suspicion is that with increasing infections and deaths there will be a backlash of sorts at some point. It is easy to argue against vaccines while they protect you. Much more difficult when increasing folks specifically in those groups start dying. If only they would not endanger others with their mindset.

Utopian scenarios come to mind...a combination of the new Mad Max movie with addition of zombies running around and enclaves of healthy people defending themselves. 

[CharonY]

Well, since the zombies in this scenario are the sick ones, things will probably sort themselves out eventually.