Is this a thing?

[Strange]

Is there some sort of known psychological phenomenon (condition? disorder?) where people will say or write things that they assume will make sense to others because they understand it themselves. But they fail to reveal or explain any of the background knowledge or information that allows them to make sense of it.

 

This seems to happen fairly frequently on science forums (particularly in Speculations or equivalent). People will post a cryptic paragraph or equation or image and expect others to make sense of it. In some cases, it is possible to slowly drag enough information out of the other party to make some sort of sense of what they are trying to say. Occasionally, they will say, "oh, of course. What you need to know is ..." as if they just hadn't realised that others don't know what they are thinking. Some never seem to get to this level of awareness.

 

Is this related to (lack of) theory of mind? Or autism spectrum? Or some other sort of disordered thinking?

 

(P.s. the thread title is obviously an example )

Edited October 14, 2016 by Strange

[koti]

What you described seems to be a feature of character or maybe a set of features which lead to this behaviour. I'm no expert but what you described doesn't seem like a condition or disorder. I agree that many people on the internet behave this way but I wouldn't consider this to be a clinical disorder. It seems that you expect extraordinary levels of coherence from your partners in discussion and I'm afraid this expectation is futile in majority of cases

[StringJunky]

Is there some sort of known psychological phenomenon (condition? disorder?) where people will say or write things that they assume will make sense to others because they understand it themselves. But they fail to reveal or explain any of the background knowledge or information that allows them to make sense of it.

 

This seems to happen fairly frequently on science forums (particularly in Speculations or equivalent). People will post a cryptic paragraph or equation or image and expect others to make sense of it. In some cases, it is possible to slowly drag enough information out of the other party to make some sort of sense of what they are trying to say. Occasionally, they will say, "oh, of course. What you need to know is ..." as if they just hadn't realised that others don't know what they are thinking. Some never seem to get to this level of awareness.

 

Is this related to (lack of) theory of mind? Or autism spectrum? Or some other sort of disordered thinking?

 

(P.s. the thread title is obviously an example )

What, you mean you're not telepathic?!

 

It''s probably linked to a deficiency in empathy; some have more than others.

Edited October 14, 2016 by StringJunky

[DrmDoc]

Is this related to (lack of) theory of mind? Or autism spectrum? Or some other sort of disordered thinking?

 

(P.s. the thread title is obviously an example )

 

It certainly seems like a mental spectrum to me; wherein, there's a presumption of understanding based on a belief that others can intuit meaning from just a few words or singular phrase. The sort of thing I suffered in marriage for transgressions not clearly identified or conveyed by my wife's demeanor. I think it's an infrequently diagnosed condition most people of science suffer as is often suggested by how little patience we sometimes have in explaining complex concepts to the uninitiated.

[Phi for All]

I think it's poor critical thinking skills all round. They leap from one bit of information to another with no bridges between, using a pencil color only they can see to connect the dots. I don't think it really makes sense to them either; most glide over and ignore the troublesome parts ("...and then a miracle happens..."), and this often makes it seem like they're on a path to the truth.

 

In general, I think it's related to the phenomenon where popular science ropes in someone who shunned regular science in school, and they think to themselves "Hey, I sorta get this stuff, this isn't as bad as I remember", or "Wow, I wish my science teachers would have just put videos like THIS on every day!" But without the foundational information they missed in school, it's like trying to figure out what picture the jigsaw puzzle will make when you don't have the box and 75% of the pieces are missing.

[dimreepr]

Is there some sort of known psychological phenomenon (condition? disorder?) where people will say or write things that they assume will make sense to others because they understand it themselves. But they fail to reveal or explain any of the background knowledge or information that allows them to make sense of it.

 

This seems to happen fairly frequently on science forums (particularly in Speculations or equivalent). People will post a cryptic paragraph or equation or image and expect others to make sense of it. In some cases, it is possible to slowly drag enough information out of the other party to make some sort of sense of what they are trying to say. Occasionally, they will say, "oh, of course. What you need to know is ..." as if they just hadn't realised that others don't know what they are thinking. Some never seem to get to this level of awareness.

 

Is this related to (lack of) theory of mind? Or autism spectrum? Or some other sort of disordered thinking?

 

(P.s. the thread title is obviously an example )

 

 

Whatever this condition may be, I often suffer from it. Not because I assume understanding in others, but because I lack the ability (intelligence) to convey proper meaning through the written word. I am far more successful when face to face, when language has multiple layers.

Edited October 14, 2016 by dimreepr

[koti]

 

 

Whatever this condition may be, I often suffer from it. Not because I assume understanding in others, but because I lack the ability (intelligence) to convey proper meaning through the written word. I am far more successful when face to face, when language has multiple layers.

Yep. I'm guilty too.

[geordief]

 

 

Whatever this condition may be, I often suffer from it. Not because I assume understanding in others, but because I lack the ability (intelligence) to convey proper meaning through the written word. I am far more successful when face to face and language has multiple layers.

I think I may suffer from something like the opposite condition. I feel that I can express myself very well but what I express may have no basis in fact.

 

Is that what they call (or is related to ) over thinking ?

[Sriman Dutta]

:wacko:May be it comes from narcissism. People tend to think that they know everything and post it..... It may be wrong.

[dimreepr]

:wacko:May be it comes from narcissism. People tend to think that they know everything and post it..... It may be wrong.

 

 

Dunning-Kruger. Suggests some people like to think they know everything and are often often wrong.

[Phi for All]

Dunning-Kruger. Suggests some people like to think they know everything and are often often wrong.

 

I think it's fairly common to want to chime in on things you may not be an expert in (everyone has an opinion), but the folks that the Dunning-Kruger study unearthed are usually pretty adamant about their expertise. On the level of "Call the President of Physics, I've discovered the Theory of Everything while showering this morning!" They don't just postulate, they want to lay the idea out in broad strokes, let the math geeks work out the deets, and start cashing those checks. The arrogance is sometimes staggering.

[iNow]

When I read your first few sentences, I too thought about theory of mind... as if they're not able to properly understand the way someone else's mind processes information and what is required to convey thoughts adequately. Then, I read you'd already thought of this on your own and realized this post from me was consequently rendered much less useful.

[dimreepr]

The arrogance is sometimes staggering.

 

 

Is there some sort of known psychological phenomenon (condition? disorder?) where people will say or write things that they assume will make sense to others because they understand it themselves. But they fail to reveal or explain any of the background knowledge or information that allows them to make sense of it.

 

 

 

We have a winner...

[Strange]

 

 

Dunning-Kruger. Suggests some people like to think they know everything and are often often wrong.

 

 

I don't think it is that. I don't think this is (necessarily) related to how much people know (or don't). It is more a communication problem.

(Just noticed you said that in response to someone else's comment)

 

 

 

Whatever this condition may be, I often suffer from it. Not because I assume understanding in others, but because I lack the ability (intelligence) to convey proper meaning through the written word. I am far more successful when face to face, when language has multiple layers.

 

That might be it. It might be that some people are just not practised in putting their ideas down in a coherent way. Having worked for decades as a writer, I sometimes forget that communicating clearly, in a well-structured way takes training and practice.

 

But there are still some people who, when you say "You haven't told us what you are talking about yet; what is this ... that you are describing", will just provide any cryptic sentence (as if it should be obvious) or launch off at another tangent.

 

(Maybe I am seeing many different behaviours and conflating them as one.)

When I read your first few sentences, I too thought about theory of mind... as if they're not able to properly understand the way someone else's mind processes information and what is required to convey thoughts adequately. Then, I read you'd already thought of this on your own and realized this post from me was consequently rendered much less useful.

 

Well, it is useful to know that someone else thought the same thing!

[Ophiolite]

Identifying the knowledge, intellect, experience and attitude of an audience is not a simple skill, nor one that everyone will come to master. Yet effective and efficient communication requires that skill be present. Those who seem oblivious to their own ambiguous communication style have not yet raised it to even a basic level.

Strange, I doubt the explanation for the behaviour you describe is any more complex than that.

[geordief]

Sometimes posting feels like driving a car . If there is a driver behind you who wants to overtake there is an unconscious desire to not let them pass . I find myself having to resist the temptation to speed up.

 

So with posting , as Strange seems to be saying the poster already knows (they often tell us as much) that they know this h***it and are only really inviting us to perhaps fill in some gaps that they may acknowledge to themselves but are not willing to spell out in public because they anticipate that their interlocutors have not understood the whole picture and so find mistakes where there really are none (it is the audience that is confused)

 

So back to the car , you are trying unconsciously not to be shown wrong by people you already have decided don't really "get it".

 

Clearly a breakdown in communication but for the "greater good".

 

"We can't handle the truth"

[DrmDoc]

I'm curious, is there a particularly frustrating post you'd like to link or submit here as an example for our consideration?

[Mordred]

I believe he referring to a tendency in numerous posts. Particularly the vast majority of the "Look at my model, its solves everything" style threads.

 

The funny part is those threads are easy to spot how much someone knows just from their posts. At least with physics subjects. I can't speak for others.

 

1) improper use of terminology

2) claims of grandeur beyond what their model shows

3) Low math or complete lack of.

 

number one I can see on communication problems but 2 is definitely a psychological outlook "grandeur"

 

3) could be communication (latex etc,) but often not.

[Strange]

I'm curious, is there a particularly frustrating post you'd like to link or submit here as an example for our consideration?

 

 

Well, the one that prompted me to post this was the Voynich manuscript one. The member in question mainly just posts cryptic and/or illegible images with little or no explanation. Presumably the content of these is (a) visible and (be) meaningful to him. But I can make little sense of it. What I can is mainly by guesswork.

 

If someone says, "I don't understand the image could you explain it" surely the thing to do is attempt to explain it, not just post more incomprehensible images.

 

It is all jolly frustrating.

And then there is this: http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/99599-sports-are-usually-governed-by-a-set/

 

What the ....

(Turns out it was failed spam - they have just gone back and added the missing spam link.)

Edited October 15, 2016 by Strange

[Daecon]

Yep, that's a livestream spambot.

[koti]

 

 

Well, the one that prompted me to post this was the Voynich manuscript one. The member in question mainly just posts cryptic and/or illegible images with little or no explanation. Presumably the content of these is (a) visible and (be) meaningful to him. But I can make little sense of it. What I can is mainly by guesswork.

 

Strange, I have not seen that Voynich thread before. I searched for it now, found it and spent 10 minutes going through it. Surely, I will not get my 10 minutes back - can you propose some compromise how we can settle this?

[Strange]

Identifying the knowledge, intellect, experience and attitude of an audience is not a simple skill, nor one that everyone will come to master. Yet effective and efficient communication requires that skill be present. Those who seem oblivious to their own ambiguous communication style have not yet raised it to even a basic level.

Strange, I doubt the explanation for the behaviour you describe is any more complex than that.

 

 

I think that is a likely explanation. I am still puzzled by the persistent inability to provide the background to their thoughts, even when asked specific questions.

Edited October 16, 2016 by Strange

[DrmDoc]

 

 

Well, the one that prompted me to post this was the Voynich manuscript one. The member in question mainly just posts cryptic and/or illegible images with little or no explanation. Presumably the content of these is (a) visible and (be) meaningful to him. But I can make little sense of it. What I can is mainly by guesswork.

 

If someone says, "I don't understand the image could you explain it" surely the thing to do is attempt to explain it, not just post more incomprehensible images.

 

It is all jolly frustrating.

And then there is this: http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/99599-sports-are-usually-governed-by-a-set/

 

What the ....

(Turns out it was failed spam - they have just gone back and added the missing spam link.)

 

I recall that Voynich thread...I understand your frustration. I think that was clearly a case of a person with an extreme obsession over the mental meanderings of a medieval trickster who had a lot of imagination, patience, and nothing but time.

Edited October 16, 2016 by DrmDoc

[Ophiolite]

 

 

I think that is a likely explanation. I am still puzzled by the persistent inability to provide the background to their thoughts, even when asked specific questions.

I was trying to be gentle, which is why I referred to "intellect" in my original post. Consider Strange the possibility, nay the fact, that some people are just dumb. (And all of us can have our moments! {That was aimed at me, not you, on account of a recent personal faux pas.})

[Strange]

Consider Strange the possibility, nay the fact, that some people are just dumb.

 

I have heard the shocking statistic that 50% of people have below average intelligence! I think something should be done about this.