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Input screen deleting my responses. Talk to you all when I am free to express my ideas. Which given the bots and watchers around here is never.

I have read that many times over the years, and always have not agreed on what was proven or disproven We are back to the river question. Is the distance traveled by the photons along the river bottom, or through the ether. I submit that the mirrors at the end of the experiment were in different locations all during the experiment and at the beginning. The Earth is moving, the Sun is moving, the Galaxy is moving. Any one photon does not know it is in an experiment. Question for you. When a photon hits a mirror, is it the same photon that bounces off, or is the original photon absorbed and an identical quantum of energy released? So why not consider the Earth as a preferred frame? Then measure what is moving relative to it and what it is moving relative to? Relativity is, in my opinion understood completely when you notice that your location is unique and all other locations are a distance from you, and light takes time to travel that distance, And all other locations exist in a particular orientation to everything else, only once in the same way that your present happens only once.

I choose to consider that there is an absolute frame and that is the frame in which in which light travels. often in experiments there is a choice as to what you hold constant and compare everything against a photon does not know it is in an experiment. It just goes out from the source when an electron falls from one quantum level to another the fall creates a particle or a wave or some combination but an impulse that travels out across the fabric of space til it hits an electron in an atom somewhere and gives up its quantum of energy to the electron which then exists in a higher energy state you can't tell a lot from the energy that one photon hits with, you need a bunch to make a case a bunch can only be available if many sources are considered and they are created over time such is a problem when doing experiments or using data from distant stars where you get one photon an hour from the source and you don't know how the source changed in that hour but, I think there is experimental evidence that there is a reference frame that stays constant, because we measure the blue shift and red shift of hydrogen lines that tell us we are moving toward or away, relatively from the source

understood, but there is a difference considering the distance traveled relative to the river bottom and the distance traveled relative to the surface. there is disagreement as to what it is that light is crossing the ether is both proved and disproved in an experiment or an analogy you have to agree on what IS space are you crossing the river bottom or are you traveling across the surface

Here is a toothpick and clay version of the twelve sections of the sphere, made up of two tetrahedra. The yellow tetrahedra is one the red,green and blue is the opposite Note that the combination yields a cube and the center of each of the twelve diamonds is on the center of one of the edges of the cube.

I think I am not clear on what is standing for what in the river analogy. One of the confusions in my understanding of relativity is when distance is used in a spacelike way and when it is used in a time like way. My solution is to consider… My entry screen is confounded. Even in word.

the count or phase is similar to frequency in that each peak represents one count or tick if there is a certain amount of ticks per second that is the frequency my contention is that a light wave of a certain frequency does not change in reference to the universe that is it is doing what it is doing regardless of who or what notices it if you are moving in the same direction as the wave the ticks will be red shifted if you are moving toward the light the ticks will be blue shifted no time is warped no distance is warped

I have a question about how you sync moving clocks. for instance, if you sync a clock from here and the clock is 30 centimeters from here and you want it to read the same time when you get to it or it to you you have to send it the count on your clock and tell it to add a nanosecond to your count so that both clocks are reading the same proper time. if you sync all clocks at the start of the experiment to read the same proper time, according to their distance from a master clock, then moving toward another clock you would see a blue shift but the lag in time would be gone by the time you were in the same spot. Thank you Joigus for your time. I got it a few times but there is looking back and not getting it. I would explain, but a bot keeps preventing me.

Perhaps, perhaps not. You believe time is route dependent. I do not, the both bricks would fall in a parabola for the guy on the platform and straight down for the guy in the train I am unsure about the chapter where a boat is crossing a river at 5 miles and hour, pointed upstream so he gets to the shore across. Bondi says the effective speed is 4 miles an hour, but he confuses the amount of water traveled, with the distance to the other shore. This is crucial to not get confused because time flows like a river. You are carried downstream no matter what your angle of approach. That is, the water you first were on is downstream by the time you get anywhere. Consider a conveyor belt you would like to cross holding a marker touching the belt. The line you make would be a diagonal line of a particular length, longer than the distance across. In the various travels of Alfred and Charles, Hermann always resyncs clocks when the travelers are passing. I think if you properly sync the clocks at the start, there would be no need.

Here is a balloon I made for my Grandson. Not just any balloon but the whole of what I have been working on since the start of this thread. The green marker shows a cube. The blue marker shows a cuboctblahedron. The red marker with the brown squiggles on it shows a tetrahedron. The red marker with the black squiggles on it shows an opposite tetrahedron. Together the tetrahedrons make the twelve sections of the sphere. The red line connects the center of the numbered diamond sections.

Also, this discussion has pointed out the difference between a world map and a world picture. A picture is what the world looks like. A map is how the world is arranged outside your view. before I take a trip I like to look at where I am going on Google Earth I like to have a picture in my mind to compare against the picture I see while I am driving.

Thank you, I am rereading and reevaluating the arguments and math presented in Relativity and Common Sense, A New Approach to Einstein, written by Herman Bondi and published 1964. This, in an effort to answer your previous vector question. I am not saying that the equations of relativity give you wrong results, I am saying that the definitions and assumptions and the dropping and adding of dimensions can lead one to incorrect mathematical interpretations. In my imagination, I follow the travels of Alfred, Brian and Edgar, as they fly around syncing their watches upon meeting and sending out pulses every four seconds and following their pulses toward the next observer. I am never satisfied, in the descriptions, that the situation cannot be understood WITHOUT any time dilation or length contraction. In my interpretation, there is still private time and public time, or proper time, but HOW clocks are synced, and why is not done in what I consider a logical fashion. In my interpretation proper time is the universal time I talk about and private time is the local now I talk about. To me, the rest of the universe is experiencing only one thing at a time and that time is now. Things that happened before everywhere have already happened and will not happen again in exactly the same combination, because things change with time. Thing we see and experience in our local now are the effects of what happened before. We see the images and feel the vibrations of the things around us. Close things first, far things later, really far things never because we don't live long enough to see them arrive in our now. But the past has already happened and the past constructs our present and the present of every other location. Nothing happens in isolation. And the future has not happened yet, anywhere. So please give me a little time to finish Bondi and try to learn some of the transforms so I can transform the transforms into my space. I do not think the equations of relativity are wrong.

Studiot, Thankyou. I have not completely translated all or any for that manner equations derived from the original definitions of Minkowski space. I will endeavor to seek out a particular said equation with vectors and such and show that the relativity equations derived from original definitions would be equally obtainable using the dynamic model that I am using without deforming space or dilating time. Regards, TAR I am a big fan of geometric solutions. MigL, I have been trying to understand relativity, without requiring time dilation and length compression. I am not using the Minkowski diagram as the Minkowski diagram. I just noticed my thought has the future below and the past above, so it might be hard to true everything up in terms of equations, but I was trying to use a model or picture everyone has in their head as a basis for discussion. Since the Minkowski diagram is used to show how space deforms and time dilates and I don't require space or time to act in that fashion to comprehend relativity, I am thinking that things might work out mathematically with redefinitions of here and now and then and there and how you get between the two. Regards TAR

Rather than defining positions on the diagram as events, define the diagram as representing actual reality in the following manner and then locate the event in the resulting dynamic model. The hyperplane going through the origin is the present of all space, three dimensional space depicted in two dimensions, . This hyperplane falls through the dynamic model at 1 sec per second along the z axis. All past events for the observer at the origin existed above the plane but are visible as photons coming in from all directions, shown on the diagram as the upper light cone. The lower light cone represents photons or signals going out, at light speed from the observer. These light cones will intersect the falling hyperplane in increasingly large circles, representing the spherical shell of photons. Movement toward another location in space results in decreasing the time and/or distance between the locations. Both locations fall through time at 1 sec per sec and light travels always at C.

bufofrog, I don't understand why critical thinking is banned on this board. There is usually more than one way to explain a thing. I do not accept foreshortening, because it deforms reality. Pi for instance is not effected by velocity. However if your spaceship traveling at close to c traverses a circle, the circle becomes an ellipse with no cause and effect noted, or any concern for whether the circle becomes an ellipse for everybody, or just for the moving observer. If it happens just for the moving observer then the distant clock just appears to click differently, it does not actually tick differently. If you apply common sense to any observation, hold time as clicking off equally everywhere at once and factor in the light travel time between the two ends of the experiment, and the position of the observers and the position of the experimenter, you can resolve differences in observed time without requiring the universe to do magic tricks.