ParanoiA

It’s plenty logically coherent by definition: used with a possessive to emphasize that someone or something belongs or relates to the person mentioned. We’ve had plenty of these arguments in the context of abortion and when life beings. Is the person corporeal or consciousness? Is a person merely the summation of their body and organs, or does it exist separate as self awareness? Are they less of a person if they lack an arm, or trim their fingernails? We seem happy to infer the notion of separation between human biology and personhood, so there is absolutely an external “entity”, and thus a contract to be recognized between the person and their body by such thinking. However you see it, it is a good idea to recognize the right to one’s self, their body, as their own as opposed to someone else, or their own. Control freaks will complicate the matter, however, since it is conducive to their ends to do so. But, of course, this is the fault of society. The United States has 2.3 billion acres claimed as their own, via flag planting and imaginary perimeter drawing. The rest of the world of humans has done the same thing, such that no one can behave and live without their choices said to “impact society” somewhere. So, what moral obligation do we have to limit an impact your societies have gamed to create? You have no moral high ground or ethical purity to appeal to, only greed and over controlling fantasies of centralized human coercion. You create your own imperative to control others by fabricating an inherent link in which to later appeal to as your right to control by referencing the link you produced. Nicely played. Even if you appeal to the ultimate, unavoidable, natural link between all living things, you still have yet to argue how that creates the right to govern and coerce based on that observation. By that measure, behavior in India affects life across the globe, and therefore creates the right to coerce that country – and all life really. All of us, slaves to each other, built on the observation our behaviors and choices impact each other. It’s a valid observation, but useless to freedom based governing. Appeals to societal impact serve all freedom deniers, including conservatives looking to deny marriage equality. When someone buys a cheeseburger or pays to get their car washed, are they “draining” resources, or are they *participating* in a market? By your logic, the more people who engage in a market, the more the market is harmed. As if more people buying cheeseburgers somehow hurts the cheeseburger market. That is fabulously incorrect. The more people who engage in a market, the larger the market generally becomes, the more advanced it gets, the better it gets at providing the goods and services related to it. Look at heart surgery, M&M’s, macaroni and cheese, computers, smart phones…etc. I think you mean non-payers that participate in a market. Again, another imperative society created itself, and then references back to it to dictate the behavior of others. It goes something like…‘We insist on you getting healthcare even if you can’t pay for it. And now, since we do that, we have a right to dictate your life terms because you might take us up on that offer. We don’t know which of you will do that, so none of you can do whatever you want without our approval’. Again, nicely played you benevolent authoritarians. Further, you have not shown that drug use will “tend” to these things – only drug abuse. You’re invoking the same bias that police and prosecutors possess being exposed solely to the ill effects of drug abuse instead of acknowledging the greater responsible drug use and non-addictive enjoyment. Anyone who drinks a beer, enjoys a glass of wine or smokes a joint is using drugs and you cannot show that they cause higher crime and illness – only abusers. And how much of that crime is related to and created by prohibition in the first place? (Which, of course, would be yet even more self created imperatives)

Thank you sir. Very well explained, as usual.

Not sure I'm posting this in the right subforum or not, so please feel free to move this to a better spot. Been getting fairly frustrated lately with the inconsistency of information regarding the scientific method, inductive reasoning, theory, hypothesis, proof vs. disproof... I thought you guys gave me a pretty good handle on this back when I used to frequent this forum, but increasingly, I'm growing suspicious of what I believe. And Google searching is producing mixed results. 1) I thought is was clear that science creates hypotheses via induction - that we formulate ideas about how things work by observing phenomena and inferring broad principles. We cannot deduct because we must imagine and infer how things work, and then test our ideas. We deduct when we use hypotheses to describe how things will behave - we apply those principles, or hypotheses. So, induction to formulate hypotheses, and deduction to apply hypotheses. And I thought this was simply the natural state of affairs since we have no objective view of the universe or reality. We are inside the proverbial test box, so we are naturally limited to inductive reasoning. And this is why all theories and hypotheses are replaceable by better ones. 2) I thought science does not prove things. That when we test our hypotheses, we are testing to disprove, or to falsify never to prove or verify (going back to the inherent limit of induction). I thought there was no truth in science. That it doesn't matter if a hypothesis has been tested one million times and has failed to be falsified, that we cannot make the leap to "truth" and "proof" despite how small and insignificant the leap may be, as that would invoke "faith" and science doesn't use faith. There is no 100% verifiable truth. Again, this is why all theories and hypotheses are replaceable by better ones. 3) Finally, I thought theories were formulated by hypotheses. That we test numerous hypotheses, and then formulate a theory that uses them. That a theory is rigorously tested because it is made up of hypotheses that were rigorously tested. These ideas and belief feel completely natural to me. What do I have right, and what do I have wrong?

Correct, it *needs* to be the bulk of the people out there. Stop letting them believe that they must shop, work and live just like everybody else, to the same standard. Stop letting them believe that sewing their own clothes is cruel and unusual punishment. Stop letting them believe that gardening is too much to ask. Extreme couponing is another example of how people plan and use their limited resources to maximum effect. The point in offering an atypical example is to demonstrate what is possible when you you drop the necessity to be the same, to be typical. If you require other humans to compare yourself with to determine if you're suffering, then you're not suffering. If I don't have any food, no heat or air, then I don't need to compare myself with anyone, I am suffering. I lack the necessities for survival. If I have to compare myself with others in order to figure that out, then I'm merely competing and using social leverage to my advantage. It's not that I'm a bad person, but it's how I've been taught to think. That needs to change, in my opinion. Now..property taxes average at $900 a year in Vegas, insurance can jump around but if I use mine as an example it's 1800 a year, so that's still $225 a month they must come up with - unless they just decided not to have home insurance, which is always possible. I'll get back to this in a bit and complete my response to your post...I've spent too much time on here today. This government job takes up all my surfing time...

I'm glad you brought this up. What is the point of providing welfare then? If your measuring stick is simply disparity between the well off and the less well off then millionaires could advocate welfare due to existing billionaires. I thought the point of welfare was to provide for people who could not provide the basic necessities to survive for themselves and their family. A trailer with food and clothes in it provides that. I'll even entertain medical for the sake of argument here. Why do you think welfare in industrialized nations should provide someone with a better life than basic necessity? What is it about "industrialization" that suddenly makes that intolerable? Appearances? I don't get this part...

Right, undesirable is not suffering. Undesirable is not a good enough reason to take from someone else to improve your position. Undesirable is exactly what I'd expect. If you desire better, then take responsibility for yourself and come up with a plan. Suffering is quite different. Trailers are not a good alternative to the "tiny house". The tiny house was designed for much greater efficiency, if you heard them talking about how they insulated the place. Trailers are good though to protect you from the elements, heat and cool, place to sleep, cook food, watch TV and all that. And I pointed out how the family of the tiny house has a plan for bigger things in my post to swansont. Planning. Taking control of their situation instead of letting things happen to them. That was another point on how they differ from the typical poor person. I know they're atypical - that's precisely why I'm pointing all this out. Get out of your box, your ideas of "normal", think for yourself, take responsibility for your life and plan and execute unique ideas that may work for you. Being atypical is precisely what we should advocate. I mean really...I should provide welfare because someone insists on being typical? Because gardening, making your own bread, sewing your own clothes is just beyond the pale and cruel? No, I think our consumerism and high standard of living has gone to our freakin' heads. As if we're just above all that and can't have that kind of survival methodology going on here.

http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/ That's less than 3K a year, and I would absolutely label them as impoverished. But there 4.3 million on welfare and 46 million on food stamps. From that link: And when you consider that people living off of $8 per hour, or $12 per hour, or the average teacher are losing some of that income to provide the same level for someone else doing *nothing*. Glaring problem with that data...entitlement is not welfare. Social Security is often considered an entitlement, even though the recipients are typically those who paid into the system, which is not welfare. Did you verify whether or not your entitlement data is including or excluding such non-welfare related costs? That's a biggie. Not that you said so, but just so we're clear, I never said welfare spending is "out of control". I actually don't think it is. There is a long list of places to cut spending that would save far more dollars than more welfare reform could potentially save. It should be dealt with, eventually, but it's a bit far down the list of priorities in my humbled opinion. My position is more about the perception of poverty and societal paradigms about survival and what thriving looks like.

True, but you're missing the point with the details. The point being...use your imagination, get outside of the box, stop being so quick to mark yourself "destitute" just because you might have to do things differently than the "norm". You're rarely as destitute and impoverished as you think you are. I see this as a problem with paradigms as much as anything else. That family that gets by on 14K a year has a lot to teach Americans. So the "norm" is to buy sliced bride, prepared box meals, buy a nice house that is asthetically pleasing, a pretty car, 52" big screen...so what? Make your own bread, your own pasta, your own sauce, question why you think you *need* a pretty house and car and all the bells and whistles. Why do you need brand new cabinets and flooring in order to not be "destitute"? Most of all..question why you think you're impoverished because your stuff isn't "nice" but rather "functional". There are only about 3 houses in my neighborhood with gardens. Some of these poor are home all damn day long...why not cultivate? Grow something. Why are they crying about food and getting food stamps while they let a 1/4 acre lot of soil go completely to waste? We don't appear to expect anything out of them. If you can't get food the "normal" or "standard" way, then oh my, you must be just so impoverished, let us keep you from having to get off your ass and innovate, just go to the grocery store and never challenge your paradigms and never attempt to do anything differently to take care of your needs. Hell there's one guy in my neighborhood with his own chickens. I've heard my neighbors bitch about it, and I'm thinking...we're poor over here man, the guy is trying to feed his family, why aren't more of us doing this? We get so caught up with our processed, clean society, cookie cutter neighborhoods with regulations to keep every property essentially exactly the same. They ruin the ability for people to use their land to their benefit, even if they had the initiative to do so, all because we don't want to have to see the "chaos" of farming next door. Stuck up Americans.. They enjoy a 40 dollar electric bill. Not every poor person has 12K to build a house...but how many American poor people are living in a house less that 200 square feet? Let alone on purpose? Let alone, happily? Why should I shed tears for someone in a 900 square foot ugly house, fielding their claims of "suffering" while they enjoy 4 times the living space? It's not like I'm saying "hey, that guy goes without food for 3 days, why can't you?" Those people aren't suffering in that tiny house. But you know what they're doing that is different from any of the working or lazy poor that I've been around? Planning. They have a plan and they are executing it. They are not just taking each day, one at a time, scrounging and scheming to get by. They are taking control of their situation, making plans, adjusting their thinking, taking responsibility for themselves. I don't think we have a realistic measuring stick for poverty here in America. And the impoverished are largely not empowering themselves, rather are content to be validated by society that they are in need of assistance, and it isn't their fault. It's just easier. I believe this sabotages otherwise innovative people.

I've always found the concept of American poverty as rather humorous. Poor Americans can only be considered poor comparing them to other well off Americans. It requires a comparison because people with a house, air conditioning, car, food, clothing, TV, cell phones, game systems and etc can only be considered "poor" when compared to someone else with a nice house, nice air conditiong, nice car, nice food, great clothing, incredible TV, the latest cell phones and game systems. From my experience - a class of which I've spent most of life - they typically have the same stuff as well off Americans...except that it's asthetically displeasing and certainly not optimal. The house paint is chipping, stains on the floors, ugly windows and ineffecient air conditiong. The car is a junker, requires holding your mouth just right and punching the dash for the radio to work. The food is Always Save, the clothing is Wal-Mart specials and garage sales. The TV is a hand me down and the game system was purchased with an income tax windfall achieved with Earned Income Credit. That sort of thing.. I don't understand the American mindset of poor. We're ok, folks. Really. Stop listening to the whiners, they're just trying to weasel into your wallet. They have no imagination and no inclination. Take this family of four in Las Vegas, Nevada. They live on 14K per year....well. Guess what the poverty threshold for a family of four in the US in 2012 was.....23K. They make almost *half* of the poverty threshold, and they don't take government assistance and don't need it. They have imagination and innitiative. They don't feel sorry for themselves and collect checks, while bitching in their government paid house about how the deck is stacked against them. It's America. It's easy to make it here. You have a lot of flexibility still, even with our restrictive legal structure, to execute life and survive in a variety of ways. Americans seem to have lost a lot of ingenuity and creativity. They can't get outside of themselves to realize how ridiculous they are. I make about 7K over the threshold, so we're not impoverished, but we are considered poor (median is 50K) though it doesn't feel like it at all. Like that family of four in Vegas, we are cash only, no payments of any kind - but that also means we have no shiny awesome car, no 52" big screen TV. We don't have the max cable package and our house is three different colors with a mixture of vinyl siding and rotting old wood siding. So what. We haven't been happier in our lives, and I used to bring home 66K a year living on the "nice" side of town with twice the living space. It's all in how you approach your situation. Why should we continue to allow Americans to pretend as if they are impoverished so much that they need to take other people's income just to make it? It's bullshit. We have a handful of *actual* poor people here - a small group of genuine impovershed that really do need help from others. But when I live around and read about people living off less than 23K a year, in some cases almost half as much - happily - then I have to question the threshold and the inclination of those using it to get a government check.

Overtone, here's an example of what it looks like when you support your claims. I claimed the American left supports gun control and the right supports gun rights. You got all weird and decided it might be fun to pretend like that is questionable. So here's some support of what is obvious to everyone but you: The history of gun rights in America shows a democrat-republican divide starting around the 1970’s. Same with the NRA. American “lefties” are indeed for gun control as American “righties” are clearly against it. This is basic information that I really didn’t need to dig up for you, but here it is anyway. Took me a long damn time to find those roll call votes… And, I did not include the myriad of state legislation on gun control, in which California, New York and Illinoise would provide a mountain of more evidence of democrat-lefty sponsored gun control measures. Again, more common knowledge that I didn't really need to dig up for you.. Now, you still need to support your claim about the NRA exploiting children and using victims. You can't point to the NRA ad charging Obama with hypocrisy and pretend like that's exploiting children when the context *is* armed guards protecting children in schools. *AND* they didn't parade his children on stage with a press conference dog and pony show with their emotionalism on display. They charged him with hypocrisy just like outed gay republicans are repeatedly charged with hypocrisy over their views over gay rights. It's a fair argument, and well done. In case you forgot, the NRA ad was in response to Obama's comments on Meet The Press in December:

...deleted...wrong forum

Ok, so you're *not* going to support your false claim....we won't be doing any discussing until you do. When you do, I'll be happy to address this nonsensical mess of a post of yours. Clearly, you are only here for combat with your over the top criticism of all ideas and beliefs that are not yours. I'll still play though once you support your false claim that the NRA trots out victims and uses them to advance their agenda. The latest NRA ad about Obama and his kids might hurt a little, but it's child protection that is at issue and it's standard criticism of government hypocrisy...you know, like how republican congressmen are hypocrites for their fancy government healthcare while they deny such to the poor by voting against Obamacare? Or all the republican congressmen that get caught being gay after standing against same-sex marriage? Yeah, it's personal, but that didn't stop the hypocrisy charge and no one was crying about how "repugnant" it was. Show me the victim exploitation by the NRA, as you claimed "both sides" do it...show me the emotional propaganda theatre. Meanwhile, here's Matt Welch putting it much better than I ever could... http://reason.com/blog/2013/01/18/white-house-gun-policy-like-ignorant-emo

I don't know what the hell happened up there. It didn't look like that in my edit box.

I'm contrasting that with what I started out with, line one, of this exchange...since you don't read, here's a source with video too. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2013/01/president-announces-executive-actions-for-gun-control.html As I said before, it's chickenshit to use little kids and offensive as hell considering none of his "23 points" do *anything* to stop another Adam Lanza. Show me the NRA ads that you claim do the same thing. Or are you still lost in the conversation? As I've said, both sides do it all the time. However in this case, it is currently one side. The democrat completely-full-of-crap-and-they-know-it side. The hurry-up-and-pass-some-ideological-bullshit-before-the-emotional-wave-runs-out side. Yes, when you make profoundly false statements, I will expect you to prove it. Take it back, or go watch five hours of Fox news. Do not make false statements if you don't like proving them. And this is something, considering I'm never one to send people searching all over place to verify things they've said. It takes quite a blatantly, obviously false claim to get me to do that. Uh, yes it was. Here's a recap since you didn't read it the first time...although your summary fits nice too. Yes, emotional appeals and staged theatrical propaganda offend the hell out of anyone with any moral or ethical backbone whatsoever. Yeah, like I said, trotting out victims is a favorite democrats are particularly prone to doing. I see it from all sides of any given cause, and it's predictable and prolific, but especially a favorite of lefties. Sometimes for good reason though I'll have to admit, after all, the emotional pain and suffering of injustice does involve victims that need to be seen. The difference is when they are being used to take the place of rational thought and exploited to defend a wave of emotional law making...like gun control when we have a murder problem. And I'm asking you to demonstrate your point. I think you're wrong. I do not see the NRA doing these things. Show me how they do these things or stop making the claim. It's simple, really. Yeah, see your lost here, again. I can't keep up with you losing your place in the conversation. That was a hypothetical that is supposed to help you understand those you disagree with. I didn't say the left engaged in that behavior, and certainly not after 9/11, I was using conservatives and GWB. I'm not sure what you even read, now. I shaped a hypothetical scenario that should violate your sensibilities in order to demonstrate how my sensibilities, and others like me, could be interpreted. If you don't want to understand "the other side" then why are you here? What is the point of discourse and discussion if you don't have any intention of comprehending the concerns and objections of those who disagree on a complicated, important issue? I shared why we are suspicious, with logic and reason. If your only goal is combat, then I'll happily bow out. I have no interest in arguing for argument's sake. You are reducing the rights to bear arms when you limit magazine sizes, and ban rifles that look "assault-like" and skeery... But I'm not terribly concerned about magazine sizes actually, only offended that they use little kids and post tragedy emotional tidal waves to pass these laws. It makes me suspicious when people use children to shield them, similar to how to we are pushing our bills onto our kids, and their kids and their kids...I think it's chickenshit for each generation not to pay for themselves. And when I argue to stop pushing the debt limit up, to stop spending and borrowing and pushing the debt onto our kids, and start paying our bills, I'm told I am "irrational" and don't care about poor people or healthcare. As if it's rational to think we can just borrow and borrow and print and borrow and print and borrow and make payments that are equivalent to paying 2 dollars a year on a $100,000 home mortgage while whining about how "brutal" it is... I have. My issue is with the method the gun controlling administrative left is using to exploit a tragedy. I have several friends that believe strongly in gun control, and I disagree with them but I appreciate that they at least get my position and don't characterize me as a bad person. I think they're nuts, they think I'm nuts. We're both probably right about that part.

What makes energy recovery so expensive? I've always been attracted to the idea of burning waste and redirecting the heat for useful purposes. Can this be achieved more efficiently on a smaller scale?